Why don't good companies make small P7 lights?

randomlugia

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I never quite understood why quality companies just don't make them! They usually either have a huge head/reflector, or use a lot of batteries. DX has so many P7 lights driven at 3A that will fit in your pocket, and I have yet to see one quality light like this. Why is this? I always keep a DX light with me, because it's really nice to be able to have 600+ lumens in your pocket, and but I'd like to be able to have some nicer ones. The Olight M21 is as close as I've seen, but it's still pretty big.
 

Ragiska

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P7 fully driven= heat
small host = heat AND
small host = poor battery options to fully drive

small hose + P7 = heat^2 + crappy runtime or brightness

none of smallish the DX P7 lights are NEAR 3A, most can barely do 1.5-1.8A direct drive (not regulated) for MAYBE 300-400 lumens on FRESH cells for a FEW minutes.

in that performance region, you can get MORE performance out of an XP-G than a P7.
 

bigchelis

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Because the P7 at 2.8A gets hot and will deliver 300~450 OTF lumens.

At this rate an XP-G R5 with 1~1.4A will deliver similar OTF lumens with no uggly beam or artifacts.

P7's in the 500~700 real OTF I have only seen in Mag lights or big type of lights.

The Malkoff P7 P60 DD drop-ins = 380~420 OTF at 3.5A.

The Nailbender P7 DD P60= 350 OTF at 3A

The KL4 by DarkZero DD at 2.5A gets smoking hot and makes 480 OTF and king of the most OTF lumens I have seen in a small 6P type package.

I did test the Electrolumens EDC P7 and others like it and you just get hard pressed to see 500 Plus OTF.

bigC
 

randomlugia

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A few of the lights consistently pull 2.8-4.5 amps, just read the product forum for the AK-P7-5. I know there's heat buildup, but it's not like some of the RCR keychains don't do the same thing. I'd also like to point out that the examples you mentioned were P60 drop-ins, which are terrible at heat transfer and aren't capable of more than 300-400 lumens...
 
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LEDninja

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Lousy beam pattern. Guess which is from a Mag and which from DX.
P7magvsMTE.jpg


Lousy runtime.
A 3D Mag P7 running 12000 mAH NiMH batteries runs 4 hours. My DX P7 runs 30-45 minutes.
An LEO searching for a lost kid in the freezing Canadian winter simply can not afford to run out of light in under 1 hour.
Request by LEOs for Elektrolumens lights always specify minimum runtime of 2 hours (ON MAX).

The heat issue.
My hike in High Park with the Toronto GTA members last year is 1.5 hours. My EDC P7 got too hot to hold after 5 minutes. Had to switch to my Mag P7.

Common batteries.
The LEO searching for that lost kid can get emergency replacement alkaline batteries at the nearest store/gas station.
I do not know of a single place that sells CHARGED 18650.

Big companies make lights that can be used for extended periods of time. Serious business. Not for flasholics to play with in 5 minute stretches.

The small RCR123A lights tend to be used for getting from the car to the house or looking for something that rolled under the table. A 1 or 2 minute job. For those purposes a low mode can suffice. The heat issue seldom rises.
 

randomlugia

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I'm really confused about your beam pattern analogy. If you can get a good beam from the Mag, why couldn't you with an even better quality light?

The Nitecore EZAA runs for about 40 minutes, it's not made for runtime, yet they still sell it.

The heat... Well, I'll admit it can get to be too much, though you can always switch into med mode for a while, but I see your point.

The Eagletac M2 runs on 18650s and CR123As, yet people consider it a good light.

And now you're saying that it's a 5 minute runtime, after stating yours has a 30-45 minute runtime? Also, take into consideration that a light made by a better company would actually have a driver, with better slightly runtimes. It's much easier to carry a single cell light with an extra battery, then it is to carry a double cell light anyway.

I'm not flaming anyone, just trying to get someone to come up with a better answer then heat...
 
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Ragiska

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how about coming up with a reason TO make a light with a P7?

it can't be made any brighter than the current single-die lights in a small size, and it's less efficient. so, why bother then??
 

randomlugia

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It can beat single die lights at it's size, even if just slightly. Though the efficiancy might just more than make up for it.
 

Ragiska

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It can beat single die lights at it's size, even if just slightly. Though the efficiancy might just more than make up for it.

like i said, for a smallish light, an xp-g will whoop a p7 for output BECAUSE it has higher efficacy for the same power.
 

jasonck08

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Probably because any "good company" can't warranty a P60 type drop in with a P7 driven at full amps. Because it may overheat and the LED will burn out.
 

bigchelis

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Something like this L1 bezel and copper combo with a P7 DD at 2.5A via IMR 16340 might make 500 OTF lumens..., but 600 NO WAY Jose!


FYI: This L1 R2 does 390 OTF at 2A and 14.5k lux at 1 mete with stock TIR Optic:eek:
P6070012.jpg
 

LEDninja

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The better beam is a function of the size of the reflector. The small DX P7 lights tend to have small reflectors. Unless they start using aspherics those small lights are always floody. Aurora used to make a little 1*18650 P7 with a huge head. I think Trustfire still have a little body big head listed. But if you are willing to put up with a big head why not just get a big light.
I'm really confused about your beam pattern analogy. If you can get a good beam from the Mag, why couldn't you with an even better quality light?

The Nitecore EZAA is 135 lumens on max not 400+ lumens. It falls under the category of my last paragraph - going from the car to the house, looking for things that rolls under the table, going to the bathroom in the middle of the night. Each usage is usually a minute or 2 and on low. It does not get used for search and rescue where brightness and throw and runtime are important.
The Nitecore EZAA runs for about 40 minutes, it's not made for runtime, yet they still sell it.

Most powerful lights need the power of lithium batteries (or a ridiculous number of regular batteries). But they have reached the point where even CR123A and 18650 just won't do the job. Now we have to use IMRs and 26650s. But that is within CPF and among other flashaholics.
Remember big companies cater not to CPF, but to the general public and specialists (police, fire) where lithium batteries are not well known. Fire needs hazardous approved lights and lithium batteries just love to explode.
There was a thread where a small company imported and sold some very powerful lights using CR123A batteries. There were some battery explosions and someone reported to the correct proper authorities. The government ordered a full recall. The company had to refund the purchase price and destroy all the dangerous lights. Lost a lot of money. So most companies that sell lights in the USA are very careful what they bring in.
DX don't care. They are not in the USA.
The Eagletac M2 runs on 18650s and CR123As, yet people consider it a good light.

The EDC-P7 is a 1 mode light. I can not switch to low mode.
I got the 30-45 minute runtme estimate from making 4 breakfasts - boil water for instant coffee, make sandwich over 4 days - before the light starts to dim. It was not a single continuous run.
The heat... Well, I'll admit it can get to be too much, though you can always switch into med mode for a while, but I see your point.

And now you're saying that it's a 5 minute runtime, after stating yours has a 30-45 minute runtime? Also, take into consideration that a light made by a better company would actually have a driver, with better slightly runtimes. It's much easier to carry a single cell light with an extra battery, then it is to carry a double cell light anyway.

As to quality companies that make 1*18650 P7/MCE/SST50 lights, some do, just not all of them.
Wolf-eyes makes the Sniper and Explorer.
Dereelight offers MC-E in many of their models. The CL1H V4 3SM Cree MC-E (OP) is probably the most compact.
Lumerpower has a slew of D-mini models.
Olight has the Triton and Warrior models.
Shiningbeam has the MG P-Rocket.

EDIT
I forgot to mention Peak LED solutions, but jabe1 already did.
 
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randomlugia

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Lol, okay you win. I see your point. This is probably what knocked the most understanding into me:

like i said, for a smallish light, an xp-g will whoop a p7 for output BECAUSE it has higher efficacy for the same power.
 
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