Another aspheric lens question

saabluster

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I'm not sure about the formula to figure out all the particulars so could someone please tell me how this lens would work out for a thrower?

http://www.surplusshed.com/pages/item/l3788.html

Thanks as always,
Ray
It might work quite nicely. You will have a real heard time finding a host for it. In the end there is only one way to know. Buy it! It doesn't cost all that much anyway.
 

Walterk

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It is a nice lens, would make nice flashlight with strong beam.
For a thrower it has a bit too long focal length, the f-number is 1 (diameter divided by focal length), for a thrower you look for something between 0.5 and 0.7.
 

Dr.Jones

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For a thrower it has a bit too long focal length, the f-number is 1 (diameter divided by focal length), for a thrower you look for something between 0.5 and 0.7.

That does not affect throw itself though. A lower F# lens will give a wider beam, but with same intensity and same throw. However a wider beam with the same intensity contains more total flux (lumen).

Are there actually single aspheric lenses with an F/# as low as 0.5? As far as I know they are more like 0.7 and above, and multi-lens systems can get below that.
 

Walterk

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I have a Thorlabs 75mm f 0.55 and an Edmunds 75mm f 0.45 but it has worhtless beam and focussing, a lot of distortion. The Thorlabs is fine.
A bulky and thick HID-lens f 0.7-0.6 is probably at least as useful and less costly.

Edit:
To be more specific:
Edmundoptics: NT46-244 - Aspheric lens 75mm Diameter x 50mm FL
Thorlabs: ACL7560 - Aspheric condenser lens, 75mm dia, f=60mm.
I got uncoated, best is anti-reflective coating on both sides.

Mind the difference in focal length and back focal length in the datasheets.
Mind the difference in clear aperture / clear window, with or without rim.

I dont agree with Saabluster, the Thorlabs is fine.
I have maybe two lenses with better image, but not one with a good image AND this size.
A slightly longer focal length would give you a smaller spot if that is what you are after.
 
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saabluster

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I have a Thorlabs 75mm f 0.55 and an Edmunds 75mm f 0.45 but it has worhtless beam and focussing, a lot of distortion. The Thorlabs is fine.
A bulky and thick HID-lens f 0.7-0.6 is probably at least as useful and less costly.
The Thorlabs 75mm is worthless in my opinion. It's like they went beyond the diffraction limitation of the glass in making the focal length too short. The lens itself looks gorgeous however.
 

Dr.Jones

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I have a Thorlabs 75mm f 0.55 and an Edmunds 75mm f 0.45 but it has worhtless beam and focussing, a lot of distortion. The Thorlabs is fine.
I think I found them. Didn't know there are such high-aperture lenses.
Can you post pictures taken from the side?
 

Raybo

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It might work quite nicely. You will have a real heard time finding a host for it. In the end there is only one way to know. Buy it! It doesn't cost all that much anyway.

I have an "original" FM 3" head that I intend to use, I will need some kind of jig to hold the lens but I know a few people that own a machine shop.

Thanks for the information I think I will purchase the lens, not a big loss if it doesn't work out.

Thanks again,
Ray
 

Th232

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I have a Thorlabs 75mm f 0.55 and an Edmunds 75mm f 0.45 but it has worhtless beam and focussing, a lot of distortion. The Thorlabs is fine.
A bulky and thick HID-lens f 0.7-0.6 is probably at least as useful and less costly.

The Thorlabs 75mm is worthless in my opinion. It's like they went beyond the diffraction limitation of the glass in making the focal length too short. The lens itself looks gorgeous however.

Just curious, which lenses are those? The only 75 mm ones from those labs are these:

http://www.edmundoptics.com/onlinecatalog/displayproduct.cfm?productID=2454
http://www.thorlabs.hk/NewGroupPage9.cfm?ObjectGroup_ID=3835
 

saabluster

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Walterk

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Just curious, which lenses are those?
as followed my post 5;

Thorlabs ACL7560
Dia 75
Clear aperture 75
Total thickness 30
Back focal length 40
F number 0.55
Viewingangle 42 degrees

Edmunds NT46-244
Dia 75
Clear aperture 72
Total thickness 30
Back focal length 32
F number 0.45
Viewingangle 49 degrees

Ebay lens
Dia 66
Clear aperture 60
Total thickness 24.5
Back focal length 40
F number 0.66
Viewingangle 37 degrees

walterk-albums-algemeen-picture39333-lenses-compared.jpg



The Thorlabs and 66mm lens work fine, easy to focus and good clean spot. (although always some spill, but will be lost at longer distance.)
The Edmunds gives no neat and clean spot at all..., it works but is messy.
After I shot these photos I realized it may be due to that it is hard to focus.
Another remark, although it may not show in the photo: Edmunds but especially the 66mm lens gives a small blurry spot in the center (as focussed on paper, in real the 66 shows a fine spot).
And another: The Thorlabs seems almost evenly rounded, the Edmunds is steeper and smaller at the top, and the 66mm lens seems more round then shaped.

I find photographing lenses hard. I focussed them by hand on the underlying paper, and took a photo by hand. Lens foccussed to paper, but distance from the camera to the lens may be different but around 20-30cm. Its a simple camera with bad macro-function.

Wonder what can be analyzed from this ....

 
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Dr.Jones

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Wonder what can be analyzed from this ....
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Most obvious: The Edmund lens is bad, has strong barrel distortion; it has a short focal length at it's center and a longer one at it's edges.

The Thorlabs lens has a slight pincushion distortion.

The DX 66mm looks quite ok, too, except for the center; mine has that, too, but it fortunately affects only a small area.

Thorlabs and DX both have big distortions at their edge (Thorlabs more than DX), reducing the effective diameter (depending on the (virtual) die size).

Such pictures should be taken from as far away as possible (with some zoom) to catch nearly-parallel rays with the camera.
 

Walterk

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Thx, This is an interesting way of looking at lenses!
Almost obvious, and making sense for me as a laymen.

Thorlabs and DX both have big distortions at their edge (Thorlabs more than DX), reducing the effective diameter (depending on the (virtual) die size).

You say 'depending on the (virtual) die size. Dou you mean that it only plays a role when the virtual die covers the clear aperture from a distance? Like in: At a distance the full lens may look enlighted, but their may be big variation in intensity ?

Thorlabs and DX both have big distortions at their edge (Thorlabs more than DX), reducing the effective diameter.
This might explain why the 75mm lens is not substantial better then the 66mm lens.

Most obvious: The Edmund lens is bad, has strong barrel distortion; it has a short focal length at it's center and a longer one at it's edges.

It shows blurred in real life, with a brighter hotspot.

Most obvious: The Edmund lens is bad, has strong barrel distortion; it has a short focal length at it's center and a longer one at it's edges.

For a controllable focus and even spot, we want the same focal length I assume. But what does the magnification factor tells us?
It is resulting from the focal length I presume.
We want the virtual die to be as big as possible?

Such pictures should be taken from as far away as possible (with some zoom) to catch nearly-parallel rays with the camera.

Will try that soon, if my camera permits.
 

Dr.Jones

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You say 'depending on the (virtual) die size.
I meant the effective die size 'seen' by the lens, the size of the virtual die image created by the dome or a pre-collimator. I didn't mean the virtual image created by the examined lens.

Your goal is a parallel beam. Thinking backwards, all the parallel rays go through the lens and (assuming a perfect lens) meet at the focal point, where the LED should be. Now if the lens has some distortion at some area (i.e. the edge), a parallel ray through that lens spot misses the focal point - but it might still hit the die, and that depends on the die size.
If it doesn't hit the die, that area of the lens is lost and doesn't contribute to throw.
If it still hits the die, everything is ok, since there is a part of the die sending rays through that lens spot which contribute to the parallel beam.
Thus with lens aberrations, a bigger die helps increasing throw.

I just wrote 'die' in the previous paragraphs, but it doesn't matter if that's a real, bare die or actually an 'apparent' virtual die created by a pre-collimator or the LED dome (which is a pre-collimator, too). That pre-collimator creates a magnified virtual image, i.e. a bigger virtual die, and that's why a pre-collimator can help increasing throw if the main lens has aberrations.

For a controllable focus and even spot, we want the same focal length I assume.
Yes, since that means all parallel rays behind the lens met at the same focal point, where the LED should be. With the Edmund lens, center rays intersect at some point (the focus), while outer rays intersect behind the focus.

But what does the magnification factor tells us?
Nothing relevant usually: The magnification in shots of that kind depends on the particular distance between lens and paper. A non-uniform magnification (like with the Edmund lens) however tells something about distortions and aberrations.
 

Walterk

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This are the lenses form a distance:
walterk-albums-algemeen-picture40219-lenses-235cm-edmunds-thorla.jpg


This is how it looks mounted with Led at the distance at which it projects the die:
walterk-albums-algemeen-picture40218-thorlabs-vs-edmunds-sst90.jpg
 

Dr.Jones

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Nice shots.

The Edmund lens close-up looks funny... :)
I can't really think of a proper use for that lens... Maybe it was thought to be combined with another lens? Or was it designed to be put the other way around? (Improbable, but try it...)
Paper weight?
The picture with LED shows that it performs bad... Those LED shots are quite helpful: If the whole lens area is filled with 'yellow', then it's ok.
In that Edmund LED shot, only a small fraction is yellow, so the bigger fraction of the lens doesn't contribute to throw. You can improve it by putting the lens more away from the LED, even if you won't project a die image then. Maximize the yellow :)
But better just don't use that lens.
In the Thorlabs LED shot the light was held skew, so we don't see the LED well.
These shots should ideally be taken from far away, too, btw.


Funny, even the Thorlabs has a small blurry spot in the center, but much weaker than the DX.

The Thorlabs shows more distortion at the edges than the DX, on the other hand I can't see much in the DX lens anyway, maybe slightly reduce it's distance to the paper. But it looks rather uniform compared to the others.
 

Walterk

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Is it safe, for a rule of thumb, to judge the lenses to how much grey blur they show from a distance?
I think the grey blur in the shots from a distance, show pretty much an equal image as distance-Led shots would do.

I looked up the data-sheets:
The clear aperture of Thorlabs should be 67mm
The clear aperture of Edmunds should be 71mm
The clear aperture of DX 60mm

Another finding: shape doesnt predict me if its suitable for a flashlight.

The Edmunds was also sold as a condensor, usually used in pairs facing each other I think. Maybe for theater lights..
 
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