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Thread: SST-50 Mag 3D with deep Rebel SMO reflector

  1. #1

    Default SST-50 Mag 3D with deep Rebel SMO reflector

    Here is my not yet finished SST-50 light.
    I think this one will become one of my favorite lights because of its good beam characteristic. I started planing 2 months ago and today I got some free time to start building.

    Here is the build log:

    First I soldered some enamelled copper wires to the LED. Had to use pretty much flux




    Then glued the LED to the "LED-Socket" with Arctic Alumina Thermal Adhesive after cleaning the remains of the flux.




    After that I put on some thermal grease and screwed the socket onto the heatsink:



    soldered the driver to the LED...



    Currently I'm still waiting for the batteries so that's as far as I got. Anyway, I put the heatsink into the Mag and hooked it up to the bench power supply to take some beamshots






    The beam is very clean and can throw pretty far but can also be adjusted to a useful flood. This is by far one of the best beams I've ever had. Did I already mention that I really like it?

    SST-50 @ 5A


    compared to an underdrivern SST-90 with strippled original Mag reflector:

    SST-90 @ 5A


    Both at the same time:



    Unfortunately the wires from my power supply are not long enough so that I can't take outdoor shots. I hope the batteries will arrive soon.

    EDIT:
    OK, got the batteries yesterday and took some beamshots outdoors:


    It's really incredible how far it throws!

  2. #2
    Flashaholic
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    Default Re: SST-50 Mag 3D with deep Rebel SMO reflector

    Awesome work, as always! I wish I wasn't so broke, because I really want a triple P7 light!
    I have a couple, basic lights, lol.

    Knowledgeable in car audio. Have a question, just pm me.

  3. #3
    Enlightened chicojneto's Avatar
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    Default Re: SST-50 Mag 3D with deep Rebel SMO reflector

    Great job! Cool beam!!
    It's fishing time!!

  4. #4
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    Default Re: SST-50 Mag 3D with deep Rebel SMO reflector

    Looking good, nice heatsink. You really have to get that led low to make the rebel reflector work but its totally worth it.

    You going to offer that heatsink?

  5. #5
    Flashaholic* ^Gurthang's Avatar
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    Default Re: SST-50 Mag 3D with deep Rebel SMO reflector

    Wich,

    Oooh me like! Great heatsink design, very clever. What gauge wire used on the LED? I'm guessing you used enameled "magnet" wire.
    ^G When I reply, threads die....

  6. #6

    Default Re: SST-50 Mag 3D with deep Rebel SMO reflector

    Quote Originally Posted by Mettee View Post
    Looking good, nice heatsink. You really have to get that led low to make the rebel reflector work but its totally worth it.

    You going to offer that heatsink?
    yep

    Quote Originally Posted by ^Gurthang View Post
    Wich,

    Oooh me like! Great heatsink design, very clever. What gauge wire used on the LED? I'm guessing you used enameled "magnet" wire.
    Yes you are right. The diameter is 1mm so that should be AWG18. The advantage of these wires is that the resistance is very low compared to an equally thick wire with usual insulation. Furthermore they can be easily soldered to the LEDs. But disadvantages are low flexibility and the weak insulation layer which can be damaged. But since these are used between LED and driver there shouldn't be any problems as these aren't moved that much.

  7. #7
    Flashaholic* JamisonM's Avatar
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    Default Re: SST-50 Mag 3D with deep Rebel SMO reflector

    Der Wichtel, I didn't something similar with one of Mac's heatsinks he offered a while ago and a hipCC. I was surprised to see that the rebel reflector focuses right at the upper edge of the heatsink's pedestal. Even driven at 2.8A, this thing is a light cannon, but I can't help but wonder how much light is being lost because of the reflector.
    The Runtime Index | For the disparate, my DIY Pocket Clips





  8. #8

    Default Re: SST-50 Mag 3D with deep Rebel SMO reflector

    Here, on this pic you can see the height of the focused LED.
    The deeper the focal point is the more light is being reflected which makes this reflector much better than the standard light bulb mag reflector where the focal point is in the middle of the reflector. This is ok for light bulbs since they have a 360 radiation pattern but for LEDs with max. 180 ( because they do not emit light backwards) you want a reflector with a focal point as deep as possible to collect most of the light on the reflector surface.


  9. #9
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    Default Re: SST-50 Mag 3D with deep Rebel SMO reflector

    Cool, so you will be selling these, that is good to know.

    I have a few questions, Does the head screw all the way down or just enough to cover the o-ring? And I assume they are ano'd, or will be?

    eta: and it looks like you left a good amount of room for heavy gauge wires, the BL heatsink I have used does not have much room for anything bigger than 24g.
    Last edited by Mettee; 07-17-2010 at 01:17 PM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: SST-50 Mag 3D with deep Rebel SMO reflector

    the head screws almost all the way down. I wanted to have a good flood as well so the LED sits a little bit higher. There is still pretty much room that covers the o-oring.

    Yes, the heatsink is anodized.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: SST-50 Mag 3D with deep Rebel SMO reflector

    sweet, if you want to send me one for testing I am open to it

  12. #12
    Flashaholic* Packhorse's Avatar
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    Default Re: SST-50 Mag 3D with deep Rebel SMO reflector

    Where did you get the reflector?

    I used a deep SMO reflector from a W300 ultrafire (35mm dia) and was quite impressed.

  13. #13

    Default Re: SST-50 Mag 3D with deep Rebel SMO reflector

    The reflector comes with the new Luxeon Rebel based Mag-Lites:
    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=250681

    You can contact Mag-Lite and order one seperately sometimes they will give you one for free. But you'll need the new host anyway otherwise you won't be able to screw the head all the way down

    @ Mettee: I'm still waiting for the parts. The heatsink above was only a sample for testing before starting production. If they ship the parts on monday then I think I'll have them on Wednesday.

  14. #14

    Default Re: SST-50 Mag 3D with deep Rebel SMO reflector

    Any chance you could make just the small insert the LED mounts on from copper? That would be awesome. Either way, this looks to be a popular item.


  15. #15

    Default Re: SST-50 Mag 3D with deep Rebel SMO reflector

    Well, I thought of that but as you can see on the second picture the wires are pretty close to the edge so a non insulated socket will cause shorts very easily. Furthermore I think that the problem is not getting the heat out of the LED to the Heatsink but rather dissipating the heat from the Mag-Lite body.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: SST-50 Mag 3D with deep Rebel SMO reflector

    Is the LED pedestal self-centering?

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    Flashaholic* ^Gurthang's Avatar
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    Default Re: SST-50 Mag 3D with deep Rebel SMO reflector

    Wich,

    Great thread and a great light. When I was deep into DIY audio I used lots of magnet wire and I'll agree, the enamel / varnish used on that sort of wire is not very forgiving around metal [scrapes & scratches].

    I will offer a single thought, Michael Percy Audio offers both Cardas 18ga. and Kimber 20ga. single strand wire w/ a very thin teflon jacket. MUCH tougher than enamel.

    Perhaps a nice option for a DIY group buy....
    ^G When I reply, threads die....

  18. #18

    Default Re: SST-50 Mag 3D with deep Rebel SMO reflector

    @ irv_usc:
    yes, as can be seen on the 4th picture

    @Gurthang: never heard of suche wires, interesting.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: SST-50 Mag 3D with deep Rebel SMO reflector

    Hey DW,

    No one asked yet I dont think, and its not important to me...but will there be an SST-90 version of this? Or maybe I missed it.

    Cant wait to get one and try it out. Looks like the fit and finish is outstanding.

    On a side note, and to add...when I did a custom one of these for a P7 with the rebel mag reflector I used the standard version mag body. The new version(or led) body has roughly .150 thousands less thread on the head end. So I had to sink the LED deeper into the body to make it work. I think to make this heat sink work with the older style body all you will have to do is remove the lip on the heat sink and let it rest on top of the switch. Or something like that. Maybe you can offer that option DW.
    Last edited by Mettee; 07-19-2010 at 02:57 PM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: SST-50 Mag 3D with deep Rebel SMO reflector

    Quote Originally Posted by Mettee View Post
    Hey DW,

    No one asked yet I dont think, and its not important to me...but will there be an SST-90 version of this? Or maybe I missed it.
    Yes, there will be a SST-90 version. All parts just arrived 15minutes ago. Just have to check them out.

    On a side note, and to add...when I did a custom one of these for a P7 with the rebel mag reflector I used the standard version mag body. The new version(or led) body has roughly .150 thousands less thread on the head end. So I had to sink the LED deeper into the body to make it work. I think to make this heat sink work with the older style body all you will have to do is remove the lip on the heat sink and let it rest on top of the switch. Or something like that. Maybe you can offer that option DW.
    That's what I thought as well so I made the lip only 1mm thick so they can be filed away easily. But that won't help very much because the new reflector is wider at lower height so they will touch the threads of the older body. Which is why Mag-Lite removed a few mm from the threads of the new bodies so that the head can be screwed all the way down.

  21. #21

    Default Re: SST-50 Mag 3D with deep Rebel SMO reflector

    Outdoor beamshots added

  22. #22
    Flashaholic* ma_sha1's Avatar
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    Default Re: SST-50 Mag 3D with deep Rebel SMO reflector

    Quote Originally Posted by Der Wichtel View Post
    Well, I thought of that but as you can see on the second picture the wires are pretty close to the edge so a non insulated socket will cause shorts very easily. Furthermore I think that the problem is not getting the heat out of the LED to the Heatsink but rather dissipating the heat from the Mag-Lite body.
    I am with Al combs on this one, he is correct. If you make a copper insert, it'll allow higher max current than 9Amp pushed into SST-90.
    One can always thermo isolate the wires with thin carpon tape.

    The CST-90 use copper star & that difference brought Max current limit to 13.5Amp from 9Amp on (SSR-90) per mfg. spec.

    With your two piece design, you are using Aluminum (same as Brightlumens), but the additional junction in the two piece design traps more heat, because even if you use Arctic Silver, the best commonly available thermo adhesive, it's heat transfer spec is only 7.5 vs Copper ~400, Aluminum ~250.

    I.E.,in ideal deign, you want to have a few junctions as possible.
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  23. #23

    Default Re: SST-50 Mag 3D with deep Rebel SMO reflector

    Yes, I agree that a two part design will increase thermal resistance. But the increasing is minimal as the contact surface between socket and heatsink is bigger.

    It really doesn't matter if you use copper or al in this setup as the real limiting factor is the Mag-Lite itself. The only benefit would be the thermal masse, as more power can be stored within the heatsink. So maybe you'll be able to run the light 5s longer.

    My estimation for the Mag-Lite's heat dissipation is 3K/W-3.2K/W ( room temperature)

    in order to cool down a SST-90 driven at 13.5A you'll need around 0.6K/W

    It doesn't matter if you have 3K/W, 3.2K/W.
    Increasing the surface of the head or body makes more sense in this case.

    Some thing with 9A where you need around 1.8K/W-2K/W

    It's just a difference of max. runtime within seconds.

  24. #24
    Flashaholic* ma_sha1's Avatar
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    Default Re: SST-50 Mag 3D with deep Rebel SMO reflector

    Der Wichtel,

    Did you get to see this test?
    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...&postcount=910

    The difference between the copper vs. Alum. sink on 9A SST-90 was almost 500 lumens, right from the start.

    Even if you just change the inset into copper, not the whole heat sink to keep the cost down, it'll still make a huge difference, as the "insert" is the rate limiting step. You might be able to Anodize the copper if you want to it to be electrical non conductive?

    I'd be def. be in. for a few of your heat sinks if made with copper insert.
    Perhaps you could offer a later copper insert upgrade version?

    I've made over a dozen a SST-50/SST-90 light, they are either all copper , or copper/Alu. mag sink hybrid or Brightlumens one piece Alu. heat sink. I'd covert future builds into your heat sink with copper insert, because I want to drive them into to the 13-14 Amp zoon.
    Last edited by ma_sha1; 07-22-2010 at 01:47 PM.
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  25. #25
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    Default Re: SST-50 Mag 3D with deep Rebel SMO reflector

    You can not ano copper. It would not be electrically isolated with any of the coatings that are available to my knowledge. I think the heat sink design is just what it needs to be at this point. The heat sink makes great contact far down into the mag body, and also all the way to the top. So there is total contact with wall of the mag body. With how the wires are routed it is best to have aluminum that is anodized to give you electrical isolation.

    I am not saying that the copper does not work as stated, but it would make this heat sink a small amount better. You still have to contend with the outer part of the heat sink transferring heat to the outside of the light through the mag body. I think that is where DW came up with his approach to the materials used.

    Plus... this heat sink to the US will cost close to $30 USD, adding the copper part would probably make it closer to $40.

    eta: I just saw the beam shots, looks like it goes out to about 250 to 300 meters very nice. I have noticed beam with the SST-50/90 seems to be like a tunnel of light, you can really see the difference between them and other leds. The spill is very faint in comparison to the spot.
    Last edited by Mettee; 07-22-2010 at 11:55 AM.

  26. #26

    Default Re: SST-50 Mag 3D with deep Rebel SMO reflector

    Just for your interest.

    Took my 80W Weller WS 81 solderingstation which has a flat top iron and set it to 150C. Put it to the top where the LED usually would have sit and this is what I got:

    The top temperature was 80C and the surface which usually makes contact to the body was 74C. So that's a temperature difference of 6K. I used cheap silicone based thermal paste which I'm usually using for experiments like this between socket and heatsink. However there is max. 1K improvement I think if better thermal grease is used.

    When set to 250C I got 102C and 94C respectively.

    The Lambdalight measurement is interesting. I'm not sure but a Vf difference of the LEDs can cause the difference in brightness as well. It would be more clear if the current has been measured during the test.

  27. #27
    Flashaholic* ma_sha1's Avatar
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    Default Re: SST-50 Mag 3D with deep Rebel SMO reflector

    Der Wichtel,

    If your experiment is trying to figure out how much worse the extra junction may make yours vs. Brightlumens, I don't really think it's a big deal, it may cost you a few degrees, not a big deal.

    I am more seeing your two parts design as an Advantage, due to the flexibility it gives to potentially introduce a copper insert.

    To the US market, Because your heat sink cost more & has one extra junction, it may make it harder to compete with brightlumens one piece design if both are made out of aluminum.

    I also used Brightlumen sink SST-90 for Deep rebel SMO, just grind off the skirt, then push the sink deep in.

    However, the copper insert would make your sink far superior, thus a competitive advantage that helps to justify higher price in the US market.

    just my 2 cents


    PS: I did 15 Amp test on the brightlumen's sink for 30" , but didn't build a light running that high Amp.
    I would be more confident to build a SST-90 light with copper insert sink to have a 15Amp "Nuke mode".
    I.E. two modes: Low would be = 8-9Amp, High would be the Nuke Mode, 14-15 Amp for less than 1 min short burst



    .
    .
    Last edited by ma_sha1; 07-22-2010 at 02:08 PM.
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  28. #28
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    Default Re: SST-50 Mag 3D with deep Rebel SMO reflector

    You can not use the britelumens heat sink with the rebel reflector, the entire point of DW heat sink design. And you also can not use it unless you cut off the lip and the bottom end of the heat sink. Which makes a lot less mass, and a lot less contact to the body of the mag. Another thing that the DW heat sink does that the britelumens one does not.

    On top of that, when you use the britelumens heat sink you can not use anything bigger than 24 gauge wires, they don't fit into the groves. I even contacted Jo about that but it doesn't seem he changed the design.

    A junction that is screwed down is really not a concern, it is done many times. We even glue down leds. Thanks LZ for the pic.




    The design is good, and it already competes with the britelumens heat sink. You dont have to grind on it. You dont have to hack up the rebel reflector any more than opening the vertex. There is room for big wires.

    Britelumens heat sink- $21 plus, $6 to ship
    DW heat sink- $21.xxx and change depending on the exchange, and $6 to ship.


    .

  29. #29

    Default Re: SST-50 Mag 3D with deep Rebel SMO reflector

    @ma_sha1:
    No, I was not trying to compare BL heatsink vs mine but rather to a full copper version.

    So you got 6K difference between LED pedestal and outer cover/surface with the Al heatsink. So copper may achieve 1-2k difference at best so that's just 4-5K difference to alumium. Only with unobtainium you'll get full 6K difference to Al which is still not very much.

    Also keep in mind that the heatsink was 80C hot .

    So I wonder if this 4K difference in temp will really cause a 500L boost.

    And now to your 15A test

    The main reason why direct driven LEDs go is because most people use normal multimeters such as yours to test the current while building the light.

    But the current you are reading is much lower compared to the current without the meter in between because of its resistance. Some people realized that and use thicker wires but you can use wires as thick as you want, the meter has an internal measuring resistor of around 0.01Ohm - 0.1Ohm ( some may be higher or lower). So the voltage drop accross these can be between 0.9V-0.09V which will cause big current differences.

    Thus always try to keep the current a few Amps lower while building your light.

    Nevertheless I will think about a copper version but I'm not sure if there could be problems while machining as it is a very soft material.

    For the Al version I already had to learn that the SST-50 socket was hard to machine as the fine milling heads broke thousand times.

    EDIT:
    What kind of batteries are you using that can withstand 15A?

  30. #30
    Retired Administrator Norm's Avatar
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    Default Re: SST-50 Mag 3D with deep Rebel SMO reflector

    Looking forward to this being available as a kit, looks brilliant.
    Norm

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