Could it happen in england?

In lieu of the massive power outage that affected the Eastern US and Canada, the question has to be asked... could it happen here in England?
The staggering thing is that the number of Americans affected is about the same as the total English population!
The American system was established a long time before England's system as it was the vision of Mr Thomas Edison, who not only invented the bulb but also the grid system to power millions of them from a single generator.
There is an insatiable demand for electric power as our towns become more mechanised and there is also a huge increase in the amount of public lighting, etc. Experts say that during a cold dark winter there may be times when we cannot generate enough power for our needs
We rely too much on the mains as a source of power.
So, what could potentially wipe out England's power supply?
1. Strange weather patterns. The very hot weather we have recently experienced placced a great strain on the country's 1000's of miles of pylon networks. The wires have been drooping low over roads and were in danger of being collided with!

Speaking of weather patterns affecting the power, has the A/C use over there affected anyting?

-Jason

I think they have about 5 air conditioners in England.

Not many people have airconditioning in thier homes but offices and specialist laboratories have them!
In England we throw open all the doors and windows in the attempt to stay cool, but that attracts the bugs at night!
We're more likely to see powerlines taken down by storms.
Winter overload is much more likely as our towns get bigger and we have more power hungry items than ever before, not to mention the forests of streetlamps with ever bigger and brighter bulbs springing up in an efforrt to reduce crime. We have luminaires in Leicester with up to 5 half-kilowatt SON-T bulbs on them.
At the same time there are ever more gadgets,,, large screen TV's, bread machines, higher powered hoovers, cookers and even computers than ever before.
Yet the previous government in thier wisdom reduced the generating capacity by closing down a lot of the coal burning power stations making us rely more on gas powered stations and nuclear power (imported mainly from France via a massive undersea power line across the channel). In other words, if a French power system failure occured and we were at peak demand, then whole swathes of the South East would be plunged into darkness!
We also have the "de-regulated" electricity industry which has split responsibilities over many different companies. Whn a fault occurs you cannot b sure which company to ring any more!
If home air conditioning does become more popular, we are sure going to see more summer overloads!

It was also interesting to watch Newsnight speculating about other causes. Terrorists now know the vulnerability of national grids. In Yugoslavia, even prior to the troubles, terrorists managed to shut down a power plant by shoving the carcass of a dead cow up the water inlet tubes of a power station cooling system on the Danube. The blackout which occured hit commercial districts of Yugoslavia's cities. The terroristsc were aiming at economic and commercial targets, but also affected millions of ordinary Yugoslavs in thier homes and put several hundred emergency operations at risk as the hospitals were affected. People were asked to provide alternative power to vital hospital equipment using portable 50cc generators.
And all it took was one dead cow!

Re: Could it happen in england?ac

We also have electricity in Scotland............

Could the same sort of thing happen there, I wonder?
I would presume some of the more outlying rural areas would be more vulnerable, but I'm sure most people living there have contingency plans!
I spent a week up in Glenisla a few weeks ago...great torchaholics country, although at that time of the year it doesn't fully get dark. I assume that the winter nights in the glens are awesome on a clear night!
I bet there's an interesting system on some of the smaller islands in Shetland and Orkney!
Diesel powered generators, maybe?

Re: Could it happen in england?ac

In Nova Scotia, we have to remove the icicles from the air conditioner intakes before starting them up. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Do you need air conditioning in the winter? Surely a heating system is required if you have icicles on the outside!

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The American system was established a long time before England's system as it was the vision of Mr Thomas Edison, who not only invented the bulb

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Noooooooo Edison do not invent the Electric Lamp, Joseph Swan of England refined it in to a working product 10 years before Edison....

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but also the grid system to power millions of them from a single generator

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`Fraid not, Geroge Westinghouse is the man to thank for that with A.C. distribution. Edison was in love with D.C. , invented electric chair to try and discredit Westinghouse and ripped off Tesla into the bargain.

Sound recording may be one that Edison gets reasonably uncontested.>EDIT< possibly not even that:

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Cros

But you do have a point about our love of all things electrical.

Adam

Wow, never even heard of this guy.

Joseph Wilson Swan (1828-1914) was a physicist and chemist born in Sunderland, England who is famous for his development of the light bulb. In 1850 the British pioneer began working with carbonized paper filaments in an evacuated glass bulb. By 1860 he was able to demonstrate a working device but lack of a good vacuum and an adequate supply of electricity resulted in a short lifetime for the bulb and inefficient light. By the mid-1870s better pumps became available, and Swan returned to his experiments.

Edison did the first successful DC light bulb, as he came up with the right method. Edison hated Alternating Current.

Nicola Tesla pioneered AC, including generation and distribution systems. He designed and oversaw construction of the Niagra Falls Hydro Generation plant, at the base of the Horseshoe Falls (the First generating plant in the World).

Giving Edison credit for Tesla's work, is an arrant ripoff. Edison eventually admitted that Tesla's AC system was superior to his DC system.

Edison pioneered Electric Lights, but, not the AC system in use today. (how about filing fraud and false advertising against the companies with the name Edison in them??)

Wherever power grids exist, they are vulnerable to terrorist/Anarchist attack (certain key towers in remote and hard to get to places are what I am worried about).

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Edison did the first successful DC light bulb, as he came up with the right method.

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Think this is where I disagree,for succesful lamp Swan for first electric lamp Sir Humphrey Davy who invented the miners safety lamp:

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/inventors/edison/lightbulb.shtml

http://www.maxmon.com/1878ad.htm

In Europe Edison capitulated to an extent and formed Ediswan electrical manufacturing.

First place in world to be illuminated by electric light, conservatory in Gateshead near Newcastle U.K.
First private home to be lit by hydro electric light, Cragside near Newcastle, home of Lord Armstrong, Armstrong Vickers arms makers and hydraulic pioneer:

http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/scripts/nthandbook.dll?ACTION=PROPERTY&PROPERTYID=178

First electric street lighting Electric Avenue , Brixton , London or mebbe Pennsylvania...:

http://www.thejournalnews.com/newsroom/071403/d0114bzinventionsin.html

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Edison hated Alternating Current.


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He did indeed and his version of power generation had many local power stations dotted around town. When people were killed in electical accidents it drew his attention to a lethal way of discrediting A.C.:

http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa102497.htm

Tesla Vs Edison

http://www.leyada.jlm.k12.il/proj/edsntsla/hist1.htm

Think power systems are even more vulnerable to effects of mother nature to be honest.

Looking at French nuclear power, their reactors are suffering in the Euro heatwave, one even has drenchers cooling the outside of the containment, that is scary.

http://www.ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=19640

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0811-03.htm
Adam

I'm still shocked they have electricity up North in Scotland...

Al /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/twakfl.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/twakfl.gif

It is suplied by an army of tarten gerbils running in wheels /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Normally we just keep warm and light by burning Englishmen.... ;-)

Tartan gerbils, what nonsense, its specially trained wild haggis.

Adam

I`m glad no-one has mentioned Wales yet.....


....actually the *real* reason we have so many sheep here is the fact that they`re covered in wool so if you put enough of them in a field they all rub together when moving round, and that generates enough static `lectricity to run a small town! Otherwise we`d still be using candles and hand-driven washing machines. Welsh scientists are trying to genetically engineer Nylon-producing sheep but aren`t having much success yet. One day they`ll get it right and when they do, it will solve all the world`s power demands for years to come /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


There are two air conditioners that I know of in Wales. I wanted to make it three during the last couple of weeks but just couldn`t afford one. Not enough room in the garden for all the sheep necessary to run it either.....

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

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EMPOWERTORCH said:
The American system was established a long time before England's system as it was the vision of Mr Thomas Edison, who not only invented the bulb but also the grid system to power millions of them from a single generator.


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If you really want to study the history of lighting you will find claims of success dating back to the first third of the 19th century. There are some relatively substantiated claims of some use of Arc lighting actually being use as early as the late 1860s.

Where Edison gets the credit is the result of his extensive system of research, record keeping and consistency to an end and enduring result.

Edison and Henry Ford were great pals, as a result Edisons research facilities (Including Menlo Park) were moved to and, are on display at Greenfield Village (Original Ford estate, Called Fairlane). As a result of the Ford Edison friendship a powerhouse to service the city of Dearborn (Ford headquarters city) was built on the Fairlane premises. Originally built as a DC supply it was unable to keep up with the needs of the area within two years. It was upgraded to AC and served the needs of the community for 20 or so more years. It still operates supplying the needs of Greenfield Village and the now public Fairlane estate. Other than being Grid synchronized it is independent.

Back to where I started. When you see the Edison facilities
it is plain to see that this guy was no impoverished backyard tinkerer. He was a Machine, he ran a business that employed scores of other people to do his work. He spent most of his time studying scientific journals and world news looking for ideas to persue.

Edison was dead set against large scale grids and HV AC distridution. His goal was a small powerhouse in every densley populated area serving at most customers within A 1/2 mile radius. His goal was to be able to build power generating facilities in existing buildings WITHIN urban areas. Supplying rural areas was never part of Edisons plan.

Westinghouse took a much broader view and adopted the Tesla plan.

RE: Could it happen in England? Yes it could. Most of Europe operates on a receptacle voltage of 220V. This in itself offers no protection. All voltage transmittion in the US is at 13,200 volts or higher. Voltage is transformed down when it gets near its destination. Commercial business sometimes purchases 13,200 volts and supplies its own transformer, resulting in a significant saving. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rant.gif

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N162E said:
RE: Could it happen in England? Yes it could. Most of Europe operates on a receptacle voltage of 220V. This in itself offers no protection. All voltage transmittion in the US is at 13,200 volts or higher. Voltage is transformed down when it gets near its destination. Commercial business sometimes purchases 13,200 volts and supplies its own transformer, resulting in a significant saving. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rant.gif

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In the UK the long distance transmission at super-grid level (the transmission across the country from the power stations on the VERY tall pylons you see when driving on motorways) has a voltage of 400,000 volts (400 KV).

Local grid level is at 33 KV, 11 KV or 6.6 KV.

Many small businesses take 6.6 KV feeds and have their own transformers and switchgear. Large factories will often have several 33 KV feeds coming from differing sub-stations, with their own sub-stations and facilities to change over supplies in the event of a local power failure.

I have personally switched 33 KV radial feeds in a UK factory on many occasions.

Even very small villages will take in a three phase 6.6 feed to a small local substation, where this supply will be stepped down via a transformer and the individual phases will be divided over the houses in the area to balance the load.

Anytime you need to transmit electrical power you use the highest voltage available to cut down on line losses, and minimise size of cables required.

e.g. suppose you wish to recieve 1 megawatt of power at the end of a power transmission cable run with a 2 ohm resistance.

(Note to any electrical engineering degree students - yes I know this is an over-simplification and not exactly how it will happen, but a correct explanation will need someone with your qualifications to follow it, and I am trying to make it understandable for everyone !)

1 megawatt = 1,000,000 Volt Amps

at 33 kv this current will be 30.303 amps

and the power 'lost' in the cable = I x I x R
this is 1,836 watts

at 6.6 KV 1 MW will be 151.515 amps, giving a loss in the cables of 45,913 watts

at 220 volts 1 MW is 4545.4545 amps
yet with a 2 ohm cable resistance, the maximum current that could flow is 110 amps.

The only way to lower these cable losses at lower voltages is to increase the cable size, and this is impractical and very expensive.

Transformers however will add a lot of cost to the electrical supply as they are costly to purchase and need to be maintained, yet they operate at high efficiencies so power losses are a negligible part of the cost.

Yes, it could happen here, although it seems the most likely cause will be simple system overload. One side effect of the privatisation of electricity generation in the UK has been a cutback in the amount of over capacity. I read the other day that in recent times of heavy demand (usually caused by people making tea at half-time during a major soccer fixture - honest !) the over capacity in the system has been as little as 8%

I can't remember the last time we had a really long, severe winter here and I can't say I'm looking forward to having one now. The warnings are there for all to see, but I doubt that they will be heeded until it's too late /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif