Imalent        
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 61 to 87 of 87

Thread: What colour temperature is subjectively closest to "pure white"?

  1. #61

    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Michigan, USA
    Posts
    3,631

    Default Re: What colour temperature is subjectively closest to "pure white"?

    Quote Originally Posted by SemiMan View Post
    The study was not about preference but about what light when dark adapted looked most "white".

    In terms of preference under the black body ... Was the preferred color point at all CCTs in another study.
    Quote Originally Posted by SemiMan View Post
    And here we go, yet another person clueless about the study making a conclusion on it. Your point is what?
    Care to provide a link to the studies you are talking about? I just read the thread again, and the only reference to a specific study was to one by the "LRC". Don't know what that is...the link in the OP to a page about HID and "pure white" perception was not a study at all, as far as I can tell. And nothing was listed about the methods they used...

    Maybe we are just talking about two different things...I've just been responding to what has been linked to and discussed in the thread...if you have an actual scientific study to reference, that link is long overdue.

    My point is simply that you cannot assume that just because one study finds "pure white" (a nebulous term, at best) to be a certain temperature, doesn't mean that you can assume other people will agree. As many posts have already discussed, changing any of a number of parameters in the test can dramatically skew results. And given that it is a matter of opinion anyway, a study cannot PROVE something that is subjective.

    If you have a reference, I would definitely be interested, perhaps it will change my mind on the matter. But just repeating yourself, and saying people are ignorant or clueless, is not really adding much to the discussion.
    Last edited by thedoc007; 09-03-2014 at 11:49 PM.

  2. #62
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    11,872

    Default Re: What colour temperature is subjectively closest to "pure white"?

    Quote Originally Posted by thedoc007 View Post
    Care to provide a link to the studies you are talking about? I just read the thread again, and the only reference to a specific study was to one by the "LRC". Don't know what that is...the link in the OP to a page about HID and "pure white" perception was not a study at all, as far as I can tell. And nothing was listed about the methods they used...

    Maybe we are just talking about two different things...I've just been responding to what has been linked to and discussed in the thread...if you have an actual scientific study to reference, that link is long overdue.

    My point is simply that you cannot assume that just because one study finds "pure white" (a nebulous term, at best) to be a certain temperature, doesn't mean that you can assume other people will agree. As many posts have already discussed, changing any of a number of parameters in the test can dramatically skew results. And given that it is a matter of opinion anyway, a study cannot PROVE something that is subjective.

    If you have a reference, I would definitely be interested, perhaps it will change my mind on the matter. But just repeating yourself, and saying people are ignorant or clueless, is not really adding much to the discussion.
    I concur, please keep the conversation polite.

    Bill

  3. #63
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Maryland, Near DC, USA
    Posts
    6,624

    Default Re: What colour temperature is subjectively closest to "pure white"?

    So, I just noticed this thread is 4 years old. Probably time to retire it.

  4. #64
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    11,872

    Default Re: What colour temperature is subjectively closest to "pure white"?

    Quote Originally Posted by fyrstormer View Post
    So, I just noticed this thread is 4 years old. Probably time to retire it.
    No

    Bill

  5. #65

    Default Re: What colour temperature is subjectively closest to "pure white"?

    Quote Originally Posted by lyyyghtmaster View Post
    Or notice this: even in the early morning, before the sun rises, the skylight does a surprisingly good job of rendering wood tones, even compared to our "neutral" artificial sources! And golly, that skylight has to be 20 000 K or more! Sure the spectral power distribution is skewed heavily towards the blue. But since it's coming from a mostly-continuous-spectrum incandescent source, the deeper red is still present in significant amounts!
    I would submit rather that the reds are well represented because 20 kK is well into the violet section of the spectrum, where it's nearing red again.
    Last edited by donjoe; 09-05-2014 at 06:41 AM.
    Fenix PD30 Q5 [Past], Fenix PD32 UE [Past], Olight S20-L2 [Sent for repairs], Olight S1 [Current EDC]

  6. #66
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    3,899

    Default Re: What colour temperature is subjectively closest to "pure white"?

    -----
    Last edited by SemiMan; 12-02-2015 at 12:56 PM.

  7. #67

    Default Re: What colour temperature is subjectively closest to "pure white"?

    Quote Originally Posted by SemiMan View Post
    I would submit that it is probably no where near 20K CCT. That only occurs under heavily clouded skies.
    I don't know about that. There's an undeniable presence of violet frequencies in the early morning twilight that's inconsistent with low color temperatures.
    http://www.superhqwallpapers.com/256...ing-2560x1600/
    Fenix PD30 Q5 [Past], Fenix PD32 UE [Past], Olight S20-L2 [Sent for repairs], Olight S1 [Current EDC]

  8. #68

    Default Re: What colour temperature is subjectively closest to "pure white"?

    Wow, plenty of posts since I've been away!

    Thanks Bill for not closing the thread. I doubt I could get as much insight and enthusiasm about the topic anywhere else, no matter how hard I looked, and a definitive conclusion is still somewhat out of sight.

    The question "What do people consider the most 'white'?" is different than what they consider the most 'pleasant' for everyday lighting which is also a very interesting question. Perhaps someone else can start that other question.

    As phrased, it is a silly question (though it has generated some interesting comments), because to know what the subjective "pure white" color is, all you have to do is some testing on your own.
    I know colour 'experiencía' will differ slightly from person to person, but we can still get an average for everyone. And testing for yourself won't yield an accurate answer since people find it difficult to test for these sort of things. It's like asking how heavy a particular bag of rice is, or how many lumens a particular bulb produces. We can get close, but significant error is possible, especially if you've just exited a previous room and entered a new room with a different white where the contrast itself produces bias. The shade of wallpaper, carpet and furniture produces further bias so you have to be extremely careful.

    Even if most people think it is 4300k (I haven't read the study and can't say either way) that doesn't really mean anything.
    The reason why it's useful is because offices and shared spaces can set the lighting to the 'averaged' hue. Also monitor displays can use the hue as default white. It not only means something, but is extremely practical too.

    For example, real colors are actually infinitely varied, and the wavelength rather than the "temperature" would be a more accurate way to describe what we CALL "color".
    Well if you want to go down that route, even the spectrum won't yield the colour magenta which is a mix of red and blue.

    Without going into mega-complicated 3D models of colour, a representation using RGB (red, green and blue) would suffice for 99% of people. Just a pity that monitor displays don't standardize on this, and white appears different on my laptop than my 26" monitor or 32" TV.

    Lots of conjecture on this thread but the LRC did a study and found within the study group that almost without exception people picked 4000k as white +/- a few hundred k after adaptation.
    Excellent - just what I wanted! Like thedoc007 said, can you give me a link?
    Last edited by Twinbee; 12-10-2014 at 03:25 PM.

  9. #69
    Flashaholic
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    140

    Default Re: What colour temperature is subjectively closest to "pure white"?

    3800-4000k is very good white

  10. #70
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    3,899

    Default Re: What colour temperature is subjectively closest to "pure white"?

    No need for either conversation ... Both have been researched

  11. #71

    Default Re: What colour temperature is subjectively closest to "pure white"?

    Link us up then

  12. #72

    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Michigan, USA
    Posts
    3,631

    Default Re: What colour temperature is subjectively closest to "pure white"?

    Quote Originally Posted by SemiMan View Post
    No need for either conversation ... Both have been researched
    If you have actual studies and research, please share it. I asked three months ago for you to provide some documentation, or even a starting place so I can look for myself. But still nothing...

  13. #73

    Default Re: What colour temperature is subjectively closest to "pure white"?

    I still say visit a Home Depot and look at their display for a good general idea. Keep in mind some stores may vary, but can't say for sure. They also used some CFLs, so CRI aside...

    Soft White- 2700K | Bright White - 3500K | Natural Daylight - 5000K

    The soft white is very close to the incandescent. I find it hard to believe anyone would argue against the 3500K being the most neutral. And there's nothing "natural" about the natural daylight 5000K in reality. Maybe in some sophisticated computer model, though.
    GOOD TINT!

  14. #74
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    3,899

    Default Re: What colour temperature is subjectively closest to "pure white"?

    -----
    Last edited by SemiMan; 12-02-2015 at 12:56 PM.

  15. #75
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    3,899

    Default Re: What colour temperature is subjectively closest to "pure white"?

    -----
    Last edited by SemiMan; 12-02-2015 at 12:56 PM.

  16. #76

    Default Re: What colour temperature is subjectively closest to "pure white"?

    Semiman, can you not find the study? Me and maybe thedoc will continue to bug you until you link it or at least until you give up searching for it =p

    So you say it's 4000K for the the 'subjectively whitest' light right? What is it for the subjectively most pleasant white?

  17. #77

    Default Re: What colour temperature is subjectively closest to "pure white"?

    Quote Originally Posted by SemiMan View Post
    Can't review bulbs in a store. You eyes are adjusted to store light, not the light you will be installing. Rough idea is what you get which is better than nothing.
    No I did just fine. That's like saying you can't choose a bulb inside your home since your eyes are adjusted to the sunlight, sunset, TV, glow from smartphone, etc. I guess technically you may be right, but that's splitting hairs. I looked at the bulbs in HD, and decided 3500 was the perfect temp for me. It didn't change when I got home.

    It also helps they are isolated in those little boxes, not just plugged into a wall somewhere.
    GOOD TINT!

  18. #78

    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Michigan, USA
    Posts
    3,631

    Default Re: What colour temperature is subjectively closest to "pure white"?

    Quote Originally Posted by SemiMan View Post
    Can't review bulbs in a store. You eyes are adjusted to store light, not the light you will be installing. Rough idea is what you get which is better than nothing.
    On this point I concur with SemiMan. Certainly you can get some idea...but the store lighting does give you a baseline which COULD skew your preference pretty badly, especially if you were unaware of it.

    I know that if I have been using a cool source for a while, warm tints look extremely yellow. But that exact same tint can look fairly neutral white if you have been accustomed to it. That's why I think the "pure white" phrase is problematic. Depending on how you set up the experiment, you could quite easily get whatever results you want. And someone else using another method could find a very different result. Since no one is forthcoming with any actual studies, though, it may be a moot point.
    Last edited by thedoc007; 12-12-2014 at 08:49 AM.

  19. #79

    Default Re: What colour temperature is subjectively closest to "pure white"?

    That's why I think the "pure white" phrase is problematic.
    I agree with the difficulties in removing sources of bias.

    However, you can adjust for these kind of things. For example, you can stay in a dark room for an hour before seeing the light.

    Bear in mind that no matter how long I stay in a room with say a 2000K or 12000K light, I'll (and I bet you) would always see a orange/red (former) and blue/violet (latter) light. Less so with 4000K and say 7000K, but still noticeable.

  20. #80

    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Michigan, USA
    Posts
    3,631

    Default Re: What colour temperature is subjectively closest to "pure white"?

    Bump. Still waiting for a link or source for ANY scientific research on the subject.

  21. #81
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    868

    Default Re: What colour temperature is subjectively closest to "pure white"?

    Quote Originally Posted by thedoc007 View Post
    Care to provide a link to the studies you are talking about? ...

    If you have a reference, I would definitely be interested, perhaps it will change my mind on the matter. But just repeating yourself, and saying people are ignorant or clueless, is not really adding much to the discussion.
    Yes. If a poster is relying on a scientific study, please share it with the rest of us...
    Jim

  22. #82

    Default Re: What colour temperature is subjectively "pure white"?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElectronGuru View Post
    My testing shows 4300K to be the mark, 5000K is still pretty blue.
    I agree. I believe moonlight is about 4200K.
    4500K is a good cool neutral white.

    Quote Originally Posted by StarHalo View Post
    There is no pure white; you're always going to bias one light source against another, so if you're been in 4300K lighting and move to 6500K, it'll look cold, if you've been in 8000K lighting and move to 6500K, it'll look warm, etc.
    It is certainly true that your eyes adjust, and it's easy to forget that you are viewing things under 2800K orange-tinted light. But I believe a person can still tell the difference, if they step back and take a moment to think about what color the light source actually is. Color bias is mostly a subconscious thing. The color of the light will definitely seem different, but I think it is still possible to know and see it for what it is.

  23. #83

    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Michigan, USA
    Posts
    3,631

    Default Re: What colour temperature is subjectively "pure white"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anders Hoveland View Post
    But I believe a person can still tell the difference, if they step back and take a moment to think about what color the light source actually is. Color bias is mostly a subconscious thing. The color of the light will definitely seem different, but I think it is still possible to know and see it for what it is.
    The science would suggest that you can't always (often?) see what is...there are multiple layers of perception/interpretation.

    http://www.ted.com/talks/beau_lotto_...how_how_we_see

  24. #84
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Blue Ridge Mountains, VA
    Posts
    2,362

    Default Re: What colour temperature is subjectively "pure white"?

    I've seen numerous postings stating that 5500 Kelvin is cool white. Cool white is above 6500 Kelvin.

    In the photographic world, 5600 Kelvin is day light full sun temperature. This chart is from one of the major photographic filter manufacturers, Lowel/Tiffen. http://lowel.tiffen.com/edu/color_te...mystified.html


  25. #85
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    3,899

    Default Re: What colour temperature is subjectively "pure white"?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoNotAgain View Post
    I've seen numerous postings stating that 5500 Kelvin is cool white. Cool white is above 6500 Kelvin.
    As there is no standard, your's is just an opinion much like anyone else.

    As we are talking lighting, the concept of warm/cool came from fluorescent lighting as it was the first light source that had tailorable white. The first "cool white" was 4000k, and 5500 daylight with some variant on the daylight name for 6500 and 3000K as warm white.

    As LED people were not often lighting people they adopted the readily understood warm for 2700-3000, but when they only had 5500-6500K ish at the top end, they called that cool white. Later when they came out with 4000, they adopted neutral white which was pretty a new term in lighting at that point though may be some other references.

  26. #86

    Default Re: What colour temperature is subjectively "pure white"?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoNotAgain View Post
    I've seen numerous postings stating that 5500 Kelvin is cool white. Cool white is above 6500 Kelvin.
    I do not see how anyone can think 5000K is not cool white, but everyone is different apparently.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoNotAgain View Post
    5600 Kelvin is day light full sun temperature.
    It's important to recognise the distinction between "sunlight" and "daylight". Sunlight is the light coming directly from the sun, after being attenuated through the atmosphere. Daylight also includes the background light from the sky, the addition of which substantially alters the correlated color temperature.

  27. #87
    Unenlightened
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    11

    Default Re: What colour temperature is subjectively closest to "pure white"?

    Quote Originally Posted by StarHalo View Post
    I should complete the sentence as follows: "Right, if you're in a 3000K room, a 4500K light will look pure white. The problem is, once you move to a 6500K room, that same 4500K light will now look warm." So there is no one color temp you can make a flashlight that will look white even a majority of the time, because the environment you're using it in is always changing.

    As for lighting your house, you have to be careful with how cool you get, otherwise it just looks like you're lighting your living room with garage worklights; there needs to be a bit of warmth to house lighting to prevent it from looking too sterile. I find ~3500K works nicely in office and bathroom lighting, and ~3000K is about right for bedrooms and living rooms.
    FWIW, the Twilight app on android defines 1000K-3500K as Relaxing and 4000K-5000K as Energizing. This fits with the concept of warmer colours in places we relax in (bedroom, lounge, dining room) and cooler colours in places we work in (kitchen, study/home office, garage/shed).

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •