Will there ever be a Theory of Everything?

This is a continuation of this thread that went seriously off topic. I thought I'd start a new thread here.

For the record I love Science, Math etc etc etc. I think we need it just like we need a set of laws, constitution etc. However, it is my belief that Science (i.e. man) will never be able to understand everything. In other words, there will never be a system (laws of physics) that will describe the Universe. i.e. "Theory of Everything" We will always need to have some faith. We will always have to just accept (believe) some things to be true. Otherwise we won't know the real truth about anything.

What are your opinions?

42

Here

*Warning * The following link may contain some material considered "adult", offensive, or unsuitable for a family oriented forum.

[link removed - DM51]
http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1969#comic
I think this just about sums it up.

Uh Carrot, did you read the whole cartoon?

I'm reasonably sure in time we may well be able to explain everything from the Big Bang forwards. I'm almost equally sure we'll never be able to figure out what happened immediately before. For that matter, maybe "before" and "after" are concepts which don't apply to the universe as a whole. It might be something which always is, always will be, and simply oscillates between states. I also tend to think human perception of time as linear only stands in the way of understanding things better.

All that being said, I think in the end it's really the journey rather than the destination which counts. These questions are only interesting because the answer is unknown, and the journey to reach the answers uncertain. As with many things in life, those with uncertain outcomes always tend to be the most fascinating. I think that accounts for the huge interest in sporting events. Most are inherently unpredictable. Statistics help, but statistics won't tell us whether the Yankees will win tonight, or who will win next year's Tour de France, etc. Like I said, it's really the journey which matters. Be glad despite our science and technology that so many things still remain beyond our grasp. The next 1000 years should be an interesting ride if humanity can survive.

This is paraphrased, but THIS sum's it up for me...

1st Corintians 1:

"19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And the simple things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are."

I think...No, I believe (faith) some things are not meant to be known...and if we get too close to finding out these "secrets" . For example, the difference between the human brain, and the "human" soul...what makes us have compassion for the less forunate (for those of us that do)...or are they strictly emotions? Is compassion genetic? How can some people love there kids to no end, while others can murder there own seed?

Great thread, and in all seriousness, I think we can figure out ALOT through science (which fascinates me, i.e. the "mutation" that lead to blue eyes, the Aborigine people being the only people on earth that can't be traced to an origin), but somethings will always be a mystery, as He intended.

The human "Spirit" (and it's origin) is the only thing I can think of that stops us from figuring out "everything"

In short, there may be a theory, but I think it will always be that...and since it would envelope so much, it would be more an "opinion" than a theory (as is mine).

Great Thread OP!

If we do manage to get to a point where we can find the Theory, without destroying ourselves first or meeting a random galactic "accident", it will most likely not be a human that will discover it, but the device that will be making the bulk of discoveries and inventions from here on out, the computer (or a hybrid that doesn't meet the definition of human or computer, something we don't have a term/concept for yet.) We just need enough time and progress to reach that level of technological ability.

If you have a bit of time, look up Godel's Incompleteness Theorem.

If you have a lot more time, buy a copy (yes, buy, don't just borrow) of "Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid" by Douglas Hofstadter. It's both educational and a work of art.

Nitro said:

For the record I love Science, Math etc etc etc. I think we need it just like we need a set of laws, constitution etc. However, it is my belief that Science (i.e. man) will never be able to understand everything. In other words, there will never be a system (laws of physics) that will describe the Universe. i.e. "Theory of Everything" We will always need to have some faith. We will always have to just accept (believe) some things to be true. Otherwise we won't know the real truth about anything.

What are your opinions?

Click to expand...

my opinions? I guess I see science as a set of tools. The scientific method has led us to quite a bit of knowledge that has had a huge impact on how mankind exists. Of course, as an engineer, I'm accustomed to thinking in these terms. When given a job, I consider all of my education and experiences as tools to be used in solving the problem.

Math is a more esoteric study. Almost like philosophy, in a way. Some math has a direct application to current problems. Some math, like the combinational and sequential logic classes used in computer engineering, had to wait for over a hundred years (I think) before it had a real use. And of course, some math exists solely to keep math geeks entertained.

Faith?? Depends on your definition, I guess. I see it as the catagory of things that we want to believe in, but don't have any rational reason to believe. It's an interesting thing, though. Science has shown that people naturally look for patterns in random events. It's a survival skill, really. The only problem is that the search for patterns sometimes leads to incorrect conclusions. Combine this with peoples' tendency for denial and self-delusion, and all sorts of interesting things happen.

Given that it is impossible to know everything (something that I take on faith ), I like to use established knowledge whereever I can, and use past experiences and examples for everything else.

A good philosophy class might be helpful... The Godel Escher Bach book was popular when I was in college, and I did start reading it. My recollection is that it liked to talk about recursion and some other stuff. I love the Escher stuff, but the rest of it didn't inspire me as being that significant.

anyway... thanks for the opportunity to reflect on some fundamental concepts.

regards,
Steve K.

Th232 said:

If you have a bit of time, look up Godel's Incompleteness Theorem.

If you have a lot more time, buy a copy (yes, buy, don't just borrow) of "Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid" by Douglas Hofstadter. It's both educational and a work of art.

Click to expand...

Just the little bit of reading I did was rather interesting...thanks for the reference...the "Liar Paradox" kind of explained it all, in a short-sweet way...

"This is a false statement" or "I am Lying"

Then you ask "Prove it"...

And the mathmaticians and scientists .

And the circle grows...Great stuff and very good for the brain.

We mat not be able to know everything, but there's no harm in trying. I want to know as much as I can before I die, and have fun along the way, through success and failure, because I'm "here for progress, here for the long run." -Standard Chartered :thumbsup:.

Some people get it more than others

Nitro said:

However, it is my belief that Science (i.e. man) will never be able to understand everything. In other words, there will never be a system (laws of physics) that will describe the Universe. i.e. "Theory of Everything" We will always need to have some faith. We will always have to just accept (believe) some things to be true. Otherwise we won't know the real truth about anything.

Click to expand...

Faith in what?

Truth about what?

--flatline

Th232 said:

If you have a bit of time, look up Godel's Incompleteness Theorem.

Click to expand...

Where do you think I was headed with this?

Back in my college days I read about a great mathematician Kurt Godel, who came up with the Incompleteness Theorem. Proving this theorem IMHO was more important than anything Einstein, Hawkings or any other mathematician ever did, OR ever will do.

It basically states two things:
1. If a system is to be consistent, it cannot be complete.
2. The consistency of a system cannot be proven within the system.

It basically means that mathematics is open ended. There can never be a final, best system of mathematics. Every axiom-system for mathematics will eventually run into certain problems that it cannot solve. There can never be a system that describes everything, and there can never be a "Theory of Everything". BTW, when I say "Theory of Everything", I mean a consistent "Theory of Everything". An inconsistent "Theory of Everything" is useless.

I've been watching documentaries lately about the "Theory of Everything". Scientists (Hawkings being one) seem to think they are on the brink of discovering a "Theory of Everything". It's interesting to me that they think such a system exists. I don't claim to be as smart as Hawkings, but you would think he is aware of the Incompleteness Theorem.

I'm not saying we should stop learning about the Universe, because it's futel. I think it helps us to survive. But for anyone to think we will eventually find a system that describes everything is just fooling themselves. Man will never know the final secret to the Universe.

To answer the stated question, "Yes." But, it will still be just a theory.

It strikes me that the watch-word of science is, "We used to think...but now we know..."

The more we know, the more we realize how limited our knowledge really is.

Have a look to some work of mine regarding the TOE...

http://www.writing.com/main/view_item/item_id/1692307-The-Higgs-Boson

http://www.writing.com/main/view_item/item_id/1687221-Dialogues-on-the-New-Science---Excerpt

Enjoy

Anthony

angelofwar said:

Just the little bit of reading I did was rather interesting...thanks for the reference...the "Liar Paradox" kind of explained it all, in a short-sweet way...

"This is a false statement" or "I am Lying"

Then you ask "Prove it"...

And the mathmaticians and scientists .

And the circle grows...Great stuff and very good for the brain.

Click to expand...

Lesson here: don't lie.:laughing:

No matter how much we think we learn and know, there is never any way to be sure everything we think we know is not some elaborate controlled, artificially created environment made by perverse mega aliens for their own amusement. Some may believe these are what they call God. There's not even any way to know for sure what comes next after you die. Much of what others call "belief" (in something/everything) is actually "hope" that has been repeated often enough verbally and in writing that it really seems real. Clubs and groups have formed to reinforce what you hope is true, and people flock to those for security. "The Matrix" and other movies/books hint at what I am suggesting on a scale that we can sort of digest.

Keep in mind that right around the year 2020, ten years from now, a $1000 personal computer will have the processing power of a human brain (not the abilities of "the mind", just the raw processing power). That means supercomputers will be the equivalent of many thousands of very organized and perfectly synchronized human brains working on a problem.

The day is near at hand when a supercomputer produces a theory that no one understands how it arrived at. It will seem unorthodox and enigmatic to the scientists that review it, yet every time it is tested, it will prove correct (and then other supercomputers will build on that knowledge, which will snowball into something even more complex and incomprehensible). The great theories of the 21st century and beyond won't be Hawking's theories or Kaku's theories, they'll be IBM Supercomputer Lab #3264's theories..

StarHalo said:

Keep in mind that right around the year 2020, ten years from now, a $1000 personal computer will have the processing power of a human brain (not the abilities of "the mind", just the raw processing power). That means supercomputers will be the equivalent of many thousands of very organized and perfectly synchronized human brains working on a problem.

Click to expand...

And in the year 2021, Skynet will become self-aware and launch a preemptive strike to get rid of the human threat. The stragglers will be left fighting increasingly more advanced terminators. The humans will eventually prevail thanks to the efforts of one John Conner, but will need decades to rebuild civilization.

Of course, that scenario will likely not happen, but we must be very careful regarding super-intelligent machines. We probably need to hardwire in some failsafes so they can do no harm to human beings. Another issue we'll eventually have to deal with is at what point does a machine become a life form, with all the rights and privileges that entails?