Ra / HDS Clicky Burst Mode - Disable

I was reading this thread at https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/290177.
Not wanting to derail the said thread, I created a new one to specifically to discuss the viability of disabling the burst option on current Ra models.

Henry has said that new models in the pipelines will potentially have an option to disable the burst mode:

HDS_Systems said:

Captain Spaulding, CaNo,

I have prototyped the change and have been playing with it. It still needs a few tweaks but I am essentially happy with the results. I can live with 7 items in the Option menu.

As with any change of this type, it will get a bunch more testing and then we will have to plan when it will get released. We have an inventory of manuals so it is not likely to be released until we print new manuals.

Henry.

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However, he too said that "software upgrade" would not, and probably could not be applied to current models

HDS_Systems said:

MikeG1P315,

We have never offered software upgrades. A significant problem with offering software upgrades is that there is no guarantee that the new software will run on older hardware. In many cases, it will not. There is no way for a customer to know ahead of time if that will be the case. Date of purchase is no help and serial number is no help because of how inventory is used across product lines.

As many people know, we are constantly making small incremental changes to our light. Some of the changes are made to improve the manufacturing process and others are made in improve the product itself. In general, we do not advertise the changes until long after they have been introduced because dealers don't like getting stuck with "old" inventory.

When the hardware changes, the software that runs on the older hardware effectively dies with the change. It is just not cost effective to upgrade newer versions of software to run on older versions of hardware. You cannot charge enough for an upgrade to cover the cost of development and testing. It is better to purchase the newest model and sell last year's model on B/S/T to someone who cannot afford the latest model.

Henry.

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As it will be some time before the new lights will be released, and the old lights cannot be "updated",

Does anyone think it's feasible to tweak the UI / programming of the current breed of HDS / Ra lights?

I'd be willing to pay anyone who thinks they have the expertise to do so. (I'm not sure what the market demand is, but I suppose this thread can serve as a feeler).
Sometimes, a 10s burst is not enough for me and I need something longer, eg 20s. But mainly, I feel uncomfortable having the light control me rather than me control the light.
Also, I'm not the kind who's willing to spend a ton of money on a new light - when the old light would suffice, with a few tweaks. Lights usually hold some sentimental value for me, and I'd be damned if I have to sell one of my current lights at the marketplace just to buy a new one.

Any comments?


N.B.
I understand that reprogramming the light will void the warranty.

Yes, I would have before finding out the news that Henry was prototyping the new lights. So I voted yes. But that is just saying I "would have" done it. Now it is just a waiting game :naughty:

CaNo said:

Yes, I would have before finding out the news that Henry was prototyping the new lights. So I voted yes. But that is just saying I "would have" done it. Now it is just a waiting game :naughty:

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I wonder who has the capability (or willingness?) to do it

You would need at least the source code for a HDS light, the new code for the burst option and someone who understands and knows all hardware/software iterations of the HDS/Ra lights, identify yours and code the new firmware specifically for this light. Plus he needs the hardware to program & flash the ICs Henry is using.

In other words: you can forget about it. :grouphug:

You have to remember that your expected runtimes especially on RCR123's are going to be much shorter with a 'locked on' burst mode active. I can't believe there are so many people obsessing about the drop in lumens after 10 seconds - it is barely noticable!

For heavy users, after 10 seconds of max, the light then knuckles down for the long run on the next lower output offering you almost the same visable output but with more practical runtimes.

I know everbodys applications and needs differ however, I use my 100 HI CRI for at least 45 minutes on my nightly run through dense forest. I would have to bring an extra battery and change it in the field if my light had the constant burst mode active.

James...:thumbsup:

jimmy1970 said:

I know everbodys applications and needs differ

Click to expand...

I do not leave my light on for long. Mainly it is turned on to do a quick search around the area (Raccoons, possums, skunks, etc). But just knowing the dropdown will happen in 10 seconds does bother me in the back of my mind. I like constant. My personal preference.

jimmy1970 said:

You have to remember that your expected runtimes especially on RCR123's are going to be much shorter with a 'locked on' burst mode active. I can't believe there are so many people obsessing about the drop in lumens after 10 seconds - it is barely noticable!

For heavy users, after 10 seconds of max, the light then knuckles down for the long run on the next lower output offering you almost the same visable output but with more practical runtimes.

I know everbodys applications and needs differ however, I use my 100 HI CRI for at least 45 minutes on my nightly run through dense forest. I would have to bring an extra battery and change it in the field if my light had the constant burst mode active.

James...:thumbsup:

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There are some reasons for it. I'll give 2 here as an example:

Example 1
Living in an extremely light polluted area, your eyes don't get to adapt to the darkness well. You chase someone down a dark area, and 15s later you pop back out into the street with the sodium vapour lights blasting into your eyes.

The 10s burst, and the main reasons for it 1. adapt to dark 2. long battery life both don't apply here. Firstly, your eyes won't adapt to the dark when you're in and out of darkness every 50, 100m. Battery life is not important either - you don't often use a torch when it's so bright. You use it for short bursts when you head into dark areas.

Example 2
Airport / Airbase tarmac. We're searching for FOD (Foreign Object Debris). Maximum light output would be useful. While the tarmac and runway is already saturated with light, any additional light to glint off FOD would be useful.

CaNo said:

I do not leave my light on for long. Mainly it is turned on to do a quick search around the area (Raccoons, possums, skunks, etc). But just knowing the dropdown will happen in 10 seconds does bother me in the back of my mind. I like constant. My personal preference.

Click to expand...

For me it's more of the feeling of the flashlight controlling me rather than me controlling it. Sounds ridiculous I know.

CaNo said:

I do not leave my light on for long. Mainly it is turned on to do a quick search around the area (Raccoons, possums, skunks, etc). But just knowing the dropdown will happen in 10 seconds does bother me in the back of my mind. I like constant. My personal preference.

Click to expand...

I get your point with regards to super short term use. The thing is, if I have my light on for say 20 minutes and I then hold down the button to activate the 10 second burst mode, in the field you can barely notice any difference in output!! I just get on with using the light to see where the hell I'm going and thus enjoy the superior runtimes that Henry intended us to have in the first place.:twothumbs

I think Henry was just trying to save us from ourselves when he originally designed the Burst mode UI of the original Ra Clicky.:naughty:

James....:thumbsup:

chanjyj said:

Does anyone think it's feasible to tweak the UI / programming of the current breed of HDS / Ra lights?

I'd be willing to pay anyone who thinks they have the expertise to do so. (I'm not sure what the market demand is, but I suppose this thread can serve as a feeler).

Click to expand...

While I technically should be able to re-program a ra clicky, It's never gonna happen. Henry would have to give up his precious source code (or at least a firmware file) and he would have to give details about the design of the light that are company secrets. Plus, chances are I would have to break at least one of the driver boards to get it to work correctly (µCs are very fickle about being programmed). If you try to install newer, bigger firmware on an older light that might have a smaller amount of flash memory, it simply won't let you upload the program. It might be worth trying if you were a programmer who wanted to implement your own software in the light, but then why use such an expensive light that already has excellent programmability?

chanjyj said:

For me it's more of the feeling of the flashlight controlling me rather than me controlling it. Sounds ridiculous I know.

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Not ridiculous at all. The Ra/HDS lights are remarkable. When you buy one you want to have it run your way, since you are already paying good money for one. It would be the equivalent of buying a Ferrari. If you are going to buy something that expensive, you want total control and full power. If you want economy and best miles per gallon, you might want to consider a Toyota Corolla.

I would not want my Ferrari to drop down to the speed limit after 10 seconds (just to save on gas) lol

But in all fairness, if I were going on a long distance trip, I would not take my Ferrari. I would take an economy car.

Bottom line, my usage and intentions for my light will be different than yours. I treat my lights like I treat my knives. I will have my Benchmade/Spyderco in my back pocket for self defense, but the one that gets abused is the Swiss Army knife in my front pocket. Because I would just feel guilty damaging a beautiful thing...

Chanjyj,

Do you realize you can invoke burst as often as you like? Yes, you might have to push the button again to bring it back, but you can essentially keep it going continuously.

You mention an issue of your eyes adapting. But the difference in output is very small as far as your eyes are concerned. Adjusting to half an f-stop is normally very quick and many people don't see the drop under real world conditions - unless they are watching for it.

There is no way to disable burst in the current models. It is a fully integrated feature and there is nothing you can access that will affect that.

Henry.

I guess what I am trying to say is, my intention with my Ra Lights are different from my intentions, per say with a Quark light. I would abuse the crap out of a Quark light, and prob get a good amount of run time with it's moonlight mode, but that is why I purchased it, to abuse it. I would not feel guilty about scratches, dropping it or leaving it on for an entire day.

I would on the other hand feel very guilty for dropping or scratching my Ra light. It is more of the trophy wife so to speak in my collection. For it's workmanship, durability, performance, and design.

For those of you that are not afraid to abuse your Ra Lights, I salute you. Because I refuse!

CaNo said:

I would on the other hand feel very guilty for dropping or scratching my Ra light. It is more of the trophy wife so to speak in my collection. For it's workmanship, durability, performance, and design.

For those of you that are not afraid to abuse your Ra Lights, I salute you. Because I refuse!

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I don't remember anybody in this thread championing the abuse of Ra Lights.
Do you consider leaving the light on for extended periods as light abuse?

Sorry, just trying to understand your statement.:thinking:

James...

CaNo said:

I guess what I am trying to say is, my intention with my Ra Lights are different from my intentions, per say with a Quark light. I would abuse the crap out of a Quark light, and prob get a good amount of run time with it's moonlight mode, but that is why I purchased it, to abuse it. I would not feel guilty about scratches, dropping it or leaving it on for an entire day.

I would on the other hand feel very guilty for dropping or scratching my Ra light. It is more of the trophy wife so to speak in my collection. For it's workmanship, durability, performance, and design.

For those of you that are not afraid to abuse your Ra Lights, I salute you. Because I refuse!

Click to expand...

Eh. I abuse (for me, use is tantamount to abuse due to the way I use it) all my lights. And the more I pay for a light the more I abuse it because the more I use it because I pay so much it should be much hardier (am I coherent?)

Okay. One exception - the Olight SR90 because I'm physically afraid of it

HDS_Systems said:

Chanjyj,

Do you realize you can invoke burst as often as you like? Yes, you might have to push the button again to bring it back, but you can essentially keep it going continuously.

You mention an issue of your eyes adapting. But the difference in output is very small as far as your eyes are concerned. Adjusting to half an f-stop is normally very quick and many people don't see the drop under real world conditions - unless they are watching for it.

There is no way to disable burst in the current models. It is a fully integrated feature and there is nothing you can access that will affect that.

Henry.

Click to expand...

Thanks for chiming in Henry.

Well, knowing that the light can't be modified is some kind of consolation I guess.
After taking so long to consider purchasing a 170T and then finding out a new model which would allow me to disable burst (my one and only peeve with the light) was coming soon was kind of an anticlimax for me.

I'd probably purchase the new model when it comes out anyway.

P.S.
I don't know about the others in CPF, I suppose I am a unique case, being quite sensitive to changes in light. Maybe a result of conditioning(?)
My friends used to use me as a walking light-meter when they were out photographing. Professionally, I now work in that field and realise I can estimate the exposure value of a scene to within +-0.7ev.

Don't worry bro. The next level down from burst is within 0.7 EV. You won't notice it when you are not paying attention. I only notice it because I am paying attention to it.

Much as I would like to disable the burst mode, I voted 'No' because your question specifically asked to disable burst mode. I would rather have an option to choose between enable or disable burst than to completely disable it. That slight difference in output between burst and the next level down is a good trade-off if it means I could run my lights significantly longer on that one battery. Only once in awhile do I need more than 10 secs burst so it's no big issue for me.

I am curious if the burst mode is the max lumen rating. Like, if you have the 170T, is the 170 that high because of burst, or is the burst initially higher than 170?

Doesn't really matter to me because that bit of extra oomphf doesn't do too much. My Myo Xp has the boost function that is supposed to increase brightness by 50%, but to my eyes it seems just a tad brighter than max.

HDS_Systems said:

Chanjyj,

Do you realize you can invoke burst as often as you like? Yes, you might have to push the button again to bring it back, but you can essentially keep it going continuously.

You mention an issue of your eyes adapting. But the difference in output is very small as far as your eyes are concerned. Adjusting to half an f-stop is normally very quick and many people don't see the drop under real world conditions - unless they are watching for it.

There is no way to disable burst in the current models. It is a fully integrated feature and there is nothing you can access that will affect that.

Henry.

Click to expand...

This. I rarely am able to notice the burst drop down, unless I'm standing still or looking for it. Not a huge difference.

Gaffle:

yes, the burst mode is the maximum output. The 170's step down to 120, the 140's step down to 100, the 120's step down to 85, and the 100 steps down to 70.