Current flashlight's price VS. a few years ago.

I started in CPF 2 years ago. Back then, most flashlights were still affordable, they were considered tools and gears, not collection items. But now they are way more expensive, even through LED technology is more common and cheaper to produce.

I started this thread because I feel that there are new (old as well) manufacturers and dealers who have took advantage of CPFers by introducing flashlights with a fancy functions for a sky high price.

My Nitecore Extreme was $75 when I got it, and it's been my EDC since then. I really like the infilux series but it is just overpriced for what it offers, it is not much superior to the extreme, appart from the magnetic ring, which is not really hard to produce, my $115 eagletac M2XC4 had it. And speaking of this one, it really impressed me how by adding a SST50 emitter, the price went up that much with the new model. It is not any brighter, does not throw further, and is not much more efficient than the 3xXRE version. I have nothing against them, just used for example.

I love flashlights and I would keep buying them, but it bothers me when I see overpriced flashlights like that. As a CPFer, makes me feel like they are trying to rip us off. What do you think?

High-end flashlights have always had a broad price spectra. Even 5 years ago, you had Nuwai Q3s going for about $30 and Surefires well into the hundreds. Back then, there were less mfrs that offered lights with electronics and machining that was on par, or even close, to SF. SF was the standard, the king, the be all end all. As years went by, more mfrs came out and they offered lights with improving electronics and machining. As they sold more, they got funds to do further improvement on both the electrical and mechanical side of the lights. This of course requires a bit more cost and as with anything, a small cost increase to the mfr results in a larger increase to the consumer. Many of the fancy UIs and electronics were asked for by CPFers as well as created by the brands to differentiate themselves. There are still affordable, well made lights available...far more so than what was available 2, 3, 5+ years ago. And for the same $30-$40 now, I get a much better made light than I did back then. But the market needs to continue to grow, and in doing so, more product comes out and the ranges for performance and cost broaden. Are these new-fangled fancy schamcy lights worth it?...well, that's always decided by the purchaser. And that's true for any market of any product. They all get to the point of diminishing returns. For those who can afford it, those small differences are worth the huge extra price (as well as exclusivity). That's the whole basis of the exotic market (regardless of product). In the end, I think we as customers and the CPF community is better for the expanding product lines as that not only introduces higher priced products (with arguably better performance), but also forces mfrs to improve their lower cost products, which then us poor folks can snatch up and be happy of our purchases.

I disagree. I think flashlight prices have come down a great deal. Furthermore, you can buy a cheaper flashlight with more features and higher spec than you could 2 years ago. Take the HDS flashlights as an example. When Henry first released his EDC flashlights a few years ago, I believe the price was around $300 for a 60 lumen light. Those lights did not have a SS bezel, had thinner glass, weren't as bulletproof, and are electronically inferior to the current models. You can now get a much, much, much better HDS light for a lot less e.g. $99 (120lumen), $139 (140lumens) and $189 (170lumens). In fact the early versions of the HDS / Ra Clickys came out with a $200+ price tag. It's price was revised around 2009 and it has come down since then.

Personally I think prices have gone both ways at once. As companies *feel* they have made a name for themselves their prices seem to creep upwards as each new model with slightly extra features comes out. I find that in order to get the lower end affordable lights you have to constantly drop brands that get more and more expensive and go to cheaper brands. It should be a lot cheaper to make lights today that years ago including improved versions but every time they add an extra mode to a light they jack the price up $10 to $30. Bargain lights are harder and harder to find anywhere there seems to be more junk and more high end stuff. ITP and maratec showed us you can make and sell lights cheaper than competitors with about the same features and close to the same quality.
Lights should get cheaper as production ramps up but instead the companies design them and prices keep creeping up with each new model.... then they have to go and create new bottom feeder models that are almost featureless and dupe people into thinking they are bargains when they should be priced even cheaper than they are for the lack of features.

IMHO ultra high-end flashlight prices have gotten a lot higher ($3000+) and low-end flashlights have gotten a lot lower. The mid-end has gained quite a bit of added value thanks to ubiquitous IC's, and the high-end has come down a bit, but IMHO not significantly so.

richardcpf said:

I started in CPF 2 years ago. Back then, most flashlights were still affordable, they were considered tools and gears, not collection items. But now they are way more expensive, even through LED technology is more common and cheaper to produce.

I started this thread because I feel that there are new (old as well) manufacturers and dealers who have took advantage of CPFers by introducing flashlights with a fancy functions for a sky high price.

My Nitecore Extreme was $75 when I got it, and it's been my EDC since then. I really like the infilux series but it is just overpriced for what it offers, it is not much superior to the extreme, appart from the magnetic ring, which is not really hard to produce, my $115 eagletac M2XC4 had it. And speaking of this one, it really impressed me how by adding a SST50 emitter, the price went up that much with the new model. It is not any brighter, does not throw further, and is not much more efficient than the 3xXRE version. I have nothing against them, just used for example.

I love flashlights and I would keep buying them, but it bothers me when I see overpriced flashlights like that. As a CPFer, makes me feel like they are trying to rip us off. What do you think?

Click to expand...

:thumbsdow
These companies are out to make money. They charge what the market will handle. The upside of being profitable, is that they have more money for R&D and re-investment to bring you more and better products down the road. While it is true that the early adopter largely finances the company to reinvest, it is by no means unfair. Your statement that you are being taken advantage of is unfair and unqualified. Your decision to buy is nothing but yours and yours alone. Trying to blame the companies that brought you such technology in part is absolutely ridiculous. :thumbsdow

If you feel something is overpriced, don't buy it. Simple as that. Everyone has a different value equation when buying something, especially a premium object. I think of the people that are flaberghasted that they find out that a SF G2L is what? $60 or so? "$60 for a flashlight wtf!:!?!?!??!" I just don't even bother showing them my LX2, and that is even on the low end of the scale to some people who trade hundreds of dollars of lights every month on a whim. Ultimately, there are is an impressive amount of choices and technology available and within reach of even the most modest levels of disposable income.

For the price of 1 or 2 high-end flashlights, you can buy a really good digital camera complete with zoom lens, microprocessor control, LCD display, motor-driven zoom lens, sophisticated optics, movie capability, etc., etc.

Of course, the camera market is quite a bit bigger, so the development costs can be distributed more than in the flashlight industry.

Like most of these people have eluded to, it is a factor of scale. Say a producer of a flashlight wants to try something new and spends a couple months working on it, it can easily cost $10k just for the time involved and they are then making a limited production run of say 200 flashlights, that is $50 for each flashlight just in overhead! Let alone the parts. Now the big companies may have a "limited run" of 10000, and it may cost a bit more for R&D let's say $100k, so in the end they now are only spending $10 per flashlight for overhead. So when you think of all these new companies coming up, and I am sure many are getting patents and stuff which would add to cost, until they are able to sell 1000's in any run, their costs are going to tend to be a bit higher which they must pass on to the consumer who wants them to continue to advance. When they do advance to the next stage...then their old stock now ends up having to be discounted, and will not get money for R&D so it has to be the first buyers who pay for R&D for the next great product. Small companies will almost always have higher prices, but also may be able to be much more innovative and try new things since their overhead can be cheaper if they are doing more themselves rather then having an entire team do research, also they can evolve faster as they will have less inventory and can try to keep up with technology while the larger companies will get rid of their excess inventory since it may be large and hurt the bottom line to place a new product that makes the old product obsolete.

Bottom line is, If we want Innovative cutting edge technology in our flashlights (or other technology) and want to get it while it is still new technology, we must be willing to fork the dough to get it. If on the hand you want "good enough for government" then go after a more mass production light, it will likely be a generation older, but a lot less expensive (ok maybe 20 years behind the time in some places...dang cheap 2D incan that can't take a 2' drop ...state government issue...but I digress).

Over here in the UK some lights can be the same amount in Pounds that people pay in Dollars in the USA!

I am sure there are places that are even more expensive than here but 'rip off Britain' is alive and well!

Recent example...

I ordered a Tiablo A10-G from 4sevens for $100 shipped. I expect to pay an additional 25% for import duty, VAT and our postal system charge to deliver to my house!

That is $125 in total or in pounds £79.

Over here the cheapest I have seen the A10-G is £135.

That is some mark up?

As for prices going up I'm not sure but I would like to see the older models reduce in price a little to reflect they are no longer the latest innovation and are dare I say old technology?

ATB,

Steve.

ateallthepies said:

Over here in the UK some lights can be the same amount in Pounds that people pay in Dollars in the USA!

I am sure there are places that are even more expensive than here but 'rip off Britain' is alive and well!

Recent example...

I ordered a Tiablo A10-G from 4sevens for $100 shipped. I expect to pay an additional 25% for import duty, VAT and our postal system charge to deliver to my house!

That is $125 in total or in pounds £79.

Over here the cheapest I have seen the A10-G is £135.

That is some mark up?

As for prices going up I'm not sure but I would like to see the older models reduce in price a little to reflect they are no longer the latest innovation and are dare I say old technology?

ATB,

Steve.

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You are writing total tosh,you are working on figures that seem fair to you,try importing yourself to sell on and then come back with real figures,there is a lot more to it than you think.I have been involved in importing from overseas and it can be a complex task,that is why we have import agents.

If you think you are being ripped off buy from overseas companies like you have done and eat the customs duty you may pay or better still get a buddy to buy on your behalf and forward on to you,simple and easy to set up.

How is it total tosh?

In the example I gave the difference is £56.

I have no import experience like you but I would have thought importers would get their lights at a bulk rate and pay even less per item making the mark up even higher?

I'm all for supporting local business and have bought plenty of stuff from our shores but there comes a point when we are being blatantly ripped off.

What costs have I overlooked that make importing so expensive?

ATB,

Steve.

^Hmm, I think it varies quite a lot. I just brought a Zebralight for £52.50 from a UK shop. Now if I had purchased it directly from Zebralight US - after shipping to the UK it would of cost me about £50, not much of a saving.

Conversely, I have been looking at a Spyderco knife which costs £170 to buy in the UK. If I were to get it from the US it would cost me £100 delivered, a saving of £70! Not sure what all this really suggests... I know some years ago when the pound was really strong against the dollar, nearly $2 to £1, things really were cheaper. Somethings like computer components have always been loads cheaper than here and other things about the same price - I don't know where I'm going with this...erm...hmm....Oh well enough of that, it's Zebralight time!

Yes it does vary and thank goodness for the internet so we can do some searching and make informed decisions.

When I think about it 4sevens in the USA must import the Tiablo from China, correct me if I'm wrong and still able to sell it to me £56 cheaper than the only approved UK seller.

If the UK dealer imports directly from China in bulk and misses out several thousand miles of shipping i.e from China-USA-UK then why do they cost so much here than from the US route?

Ah well enough ranting,

ATB,

Steve

mcnair55 said:

You are writing total tosh,you are working on figures that seem fair to you,try importing yourself to sell on and then come back with real figures,there is a lot more to it than you think.I have been involved in importing from overseas and it can be a complex task,that is why we have import agents.

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after paying retail priced shipping, uk taxes and the american retail price for the torch which the seller has already made a profit on, i dont see how this could be tosh.
perhaps this item could be an exception but for some products even companies say that prices are more expensive here just because they know they can charge extra in the uk market.

qazx said:

after paying retail priced shipping, uk taxes and the american retail price for the torch which the seller has already made a profit on, i dont see how this could be tosh.
perhaps this item could be an exception but for some products even companies say that prices are more expensive here just because they know they can charge extra in the uk market.

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I am not even going down the route to even try and explain,you have your views and I have mine with a working knowledge but ask yourself a couple of questions and it will lead to some clues.Why are Tesco and the likes not trading in Germany but are in Poland?,it has nothing to do with the competition either.:wave:

Like the mod said,I need to be civil so no bickering between us and no offence meant to anyone,all I am saying I have a working knowledge and still do of importing.

I totally second carrot, the gap in flashlight prices has increased, and middle range flashlights have improved a lot in brightness, overall quality, and number of different models.

On the other hand, you cannot compare US and European market when it comes to flashlights. The most of flashlight sales is still addressed to US, while Europe remains a niche market. Things have improved a bit lately, since there are much more dealers in Europe compared to year 2003, when I joined CPF. This notwithstanding, due to the smaller size of EU market and a relative lack of competition, prices are still higher compared to US.
Last thing, I agree with the OP... consumerism has hit flashlight market badly. SST-50 lights are largely of inferior efficiency compared to quad-die LEDs and XP-G, but the consumerism "God" required something new: here comes the SST-50.
Most of the LED innovation is in the chip itself. They are hard to come by. So... as a "quick and dirty" shortcut to the market, Luminus LED improved the thermal path! So you can make a large LED out of Luxeon era technology chips, and market it as a technological breakthrough to the green crowd outthere...
Flashlight lovers (and CPF friends) have been hit (or, at least attempted to) like a flock of sheeps by these "new" flashlights with 1000s of lumens... by the time we all realise these lights have half of the runtime for the same flux of an MC-E or a triple XP-G, while producing the double of the heat, the manufacturers will have sold enough flashlights to even out the (relatively small) investments.

The bad move... SST-equipped lights specifications invariably tell at least one lie, be either the flux or the runtime. On the long shot, this will prove bad for manufacturers; or will end up like the capacity specified on RCR123, everybody knows that their capacity is half of the specified one, for ALL brands. The manufactures answer? "Forced by the market God, we lie in good faith..."

Confusing? Not really. It is consumerism at its apogee. We all want a "new and improved" product, but this product doesn't exist yet, so they make up something new and describe it as everybody wants; will the flock follow?
No, not really. We like to measure and experiment. This makes CPF different!

Regards

Anthony

I'm not talking about high end flashlights being expensive, they've always been, and they will always be. They are custom made and they have their own market, there is nothing wrong with that. But the mid range flashlights are a different story.

It is true that new models have more advanced IC, better emitters and optics. But these new specs are not expensive to produce, as led technology has became more common and standard. Most big flashlights brands are made in china, I lived in Senzhen and worked in there for years. I know how cheap it is to produce stuff. Many brands only design, test and distribute the flashlights, they don't get into producing them, giant manufacturing companies does that, at large scales, lowering the cost by a great margin. This is why we often see similarities between two products of different brands.

I agree with DanTSX, manufacturers charge what the market can handle. Most CPFers and flashaholics are economically stable people, which is the target for them. I'm just saying that some manufacturers have taken the business too seriously, and all they care about is gain and more gain.

Few examples are:
1. Eag***** M3C4, light-reviews describes it as a stepback to the earlier model. Pay more, get less.
2. Red***** 2900mah battery, according to the same site, it does not perform much better than an $5 ultrafire 3000mah. And certainly not better than the AW 2600.
3. Nit***** infilux, the magnetic ring is not super high tech, and not expensive to produce either. My RRT1 and M2XC4 has it, they are way more complex flashlights, and yet they cost lot less.

Surefire flashlights have improved a LOT over time, and their prices are stable.

Ray_of_Light said:

SST-50 lights are largely of inferior efficiency compared to quad-die LEDs and XP-G, but the consumerism "God" required something new: here comes the SST-50.

Most of the LED innovation is in the chip itself. They are hard to come by. So... as a "quick and dirty" shortcut to the market, Luminus LED improved the thermal path! So you can make a large LED out of Luxeon era technology chips, and market it as a technological breakthrough

Click to expand...

Well put.

SST developments have been interesting to watch. It began with Luminus marketing, touting peak output values. Manufacturers got all excited, put designs to paper, and started their own marketing. Customers got all excited and started saving up for their favorite implementation.

Everyone down the line made assumptions, extrapolations based on generations of CREE performance. 100% output at 100% power, 80% output at 80% power. SST specs showed incredible power requirements, but 'we'll under drive it and still come out ahead'. It was not to be.

The clock started over a year ago and we were expecting a flood of models in the new year. That year is now coming to a close and most of those models are still vaporware. The engineering required to push peak power (6+ amps) on the front and dump all the waste heat out the back is substantial, and more than one project has been canceled before producing a finished light.

richardcpf said:

I love flashlights and I would keep buying them, but it bothers me when I see overpriced flashlights like that. As a CPFer, makes me feel like they are trying to rip us off. What do you think?

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They are overpriced when, 6 or 12 months later, they are sold 30 or 40% less than the initial/original price. Usually a good tool is not obsolete as soon as flashlights are tending to be nowadays.
The MG L-Mini II was an excellent flashlight but it is not sold any more to make room for newer flashlights that do not perform much better. Tsssk !
MG P-Rocket regulation and brightness are a shame !