Pit Bulls

i was at the venice beach dog park today and spoke with a lady who's 9 year old lab mix was attacked and almost killed by a pit bull the day before. the dog was there with severe bite marks all over its left shoulder. (don't ask me why she was even at the dog park with a wounded dog)
anyway, she was walking on the venice boardwalk when this guy and his pit bull passed them and all of a sudden it lunged for her dog and wouldn't let go. it took 3 guys and a stick to pry open its mouth and free her dog. she said he was one of those "hey look at me with my bad @ss pit bull" kind of guys. well, the story bothered me because it only adds to the ones i've heard people tell of their own dog being severely attacked by pits. i also have a dog (70 pound golden/husky mix) and worry that i might oneday pass someone with an aggressive pit. i just don't understand why someone would want to own and/or breed a dog known solely for the ferocity of its bite. i believe it has more force (pounds per square inch) than any other dog by far. certainly there are docile pits out there but i just don't see the need for such a breed to even exist. maybe my perception is a little skewed becuase i live in a city where aggressive pit bulls are a real problem and i've seen too many guys (with tough looking pit bulls) like that lady ran into. by the way, is there anything you can do with your bare hands to get a pit bull to release its jaws?

Put out it's eyes or cut off its air supply, hard to think of it your the one being bitten. I love dogs but attack dogs should be treated like lethal weapons and require the same permits and precautions. They are definitly not pets or social animals.

They are outlawed in a lot of towns in my area. Guy at work owns one or more and says what a gentle, docile animal it is and how good it is with the kids etc. But you don't read in the papers or hear in the news about German Shepards, Golden Retrievers etc. attacking people, it is almost always Pit Bulls.

I have a pit/shepherd mix and she is the sweetest dog I've ever owned. She's every ounce the playful terrier that pit bulls normally are when not trained to be aggressive. Part of what makes them good fighters is that they're high spirited, smart, and have a pretty high pain tolerance, but what this also means is that they're good family dogs because they can they can take the "love" meted out by a small child, but are intelligent enough to know they don't have to take abuse. This has been my experience, mine has softly nipped my three year old boy's hand when he has crossed the line, usually running up and tackling her. I say softly because I've seen her do it, its in slow motion and doesn't leave a mark. She plays with him on a daily basis and has provided him with hours of amusement.

Like most high spirited terriers, obedience training her requires a firm hand and close eye. (Bread left within reach on the counter is in serious jeopardy, despite my best efforts) She wants to please, but she also reeeeaaallly wants to run out and meet that other dog walking in front of the house. We've had mixed success with "Stay". But when she been around other dogs she's never displayed any agression, even when another dog went after her (in law's chow, very territorial)

Then on the other hand there's my golden retriever/lab mix, who wouldn't break a rule if his life depended on it, but is completely neurotic. Thunderstorms find him hiding his head between the toilet and the bathtub. He would be thrilled if those loud, fast moving kids were sent away and never returned. Unlike the pit bull, he's actually growled at them as they approach. He's fine with my six year old girl now, because she's slowed down around him and doles out nothing but gentle petting, but he'll have nothing to do with my three year old.

This is anecdotal of course, but I'm convinced that dogs are what they're trained to be. If the breed didn't exist you'd see the idiots walking around agressive rottweilers (actually you do...) german shepherd, and dobermans. Every breed has propensities that can be negatively exploited of course, but these propensities that may make them dangerous(ie. high pain tolerance in pit bulls) are often assets in other environments.

where i go paintballing, the owner used to have a pitbull.
the thing seemed nice enough, but with a gleam in his eye that said "one wrong move...and i'll eat you"

I would have to agree with Michigan Man that it is the owner, not the breed, who is to blame.

I had a pit bull for nine years back in my bachelor days. This was before all the pit bull hoopla. Back then dobermans and german shepherds got all the bad publicity, and no one gave a second thought to the Staffordshire Terrier, which was the breed's proper name. The breed was best known for Petey, the little rascal's dog. I had a roomate with a Husky. Both dogs were males, kept indoors during the day, and managed to co-exist without major incident.

That dog went everywhere with me. He was a real companion. I guess anything I say about him would be anectodal evidence as well, but he was the smartest and best behaved animal I ever owned.

I have personally had problems with an agressive Chow and a Boxer. I wouldn't call for an end to the breed. I just believe those particular animals should not be around the public. If you want an attack dog, keep it away from folks. If you want a guard dog, it should guard, not attack. If you want a pet, train it to become one.

Just my two cents,

Gary

The problem with dogs like that is that scumbags love them. Not to say they can't make great pets - I used to work with a guy who had an American Pit Bull Terrier, and it was one of the best behaved dogs I've ever seen - but they require a lot more work than most. Just like a lot of large breed dogs.

The elderly lady with the 10 pound snapping Shi-Tzu doesn't realize that her dog's behavior is a problem. But the same behavior is a lawsuit when you're dealing with a larger breed.

Bottom line: it boils down to training. What was the dog taught to do as a pup? Were aggressive behaviors encouraged and rewarded, or were they unacceptable to the owner and corrected?

I own a large breed female with an undeserved bad reputation. Last weekend we went to a local public mountain/park. There are always other hikers, dog owners, etc. there, and just like all the other dogs, she was on her leash. It's usually a good time - she loves all the attention from the kids, and she gets to visit with some of the other dogs there.

But this time, apparently, they were holding a prude convention. And WE got the dirty looks, the "Don't let her give our dog trouble" comments, and so on. All based on a reputation. And all while their dogs jumped on and barked at strangers, and generally acted like wild animals.

Be less afraid of the big dog than the dumbass who owns him.

i always thought it was due to careless breeders.some even going to the point of looking for the traits of agresion and selctvly breeding for that.but thats just my opoin

We have had quite similar problems with attack dogs a few years ago here in Germany. Within a few weeks some people got attacked and a three year old child was killed by two pit bulls while the mother and the owner (a twentysome year old wannabe-pimp a$$hole) stood a few meters away and couldn't help... Both dogs went absolutely insane and had to be shot by the police at the site. After that, some breeds got prohibited and stricter laws about ownership were released.

We always had dogs in the family and I love them, but I find a breed like the pit bull too dangerous to have as a pet. If you're not exactly aware how to raise and train the dog, it's like having a loaded weapon around that could go off instantly and there's no safety switch.

Chris

i suppose you all are right. it all depends on how the owner trains and handles the dog no matter what type of breed. the problem seems to be that most idiots want the baddest most lethal dog of the day (ie pit bulls) as pets because they think it says something about their masculinity. seems the only thing you can do is be really aware when you're around an irresponsible owner. that or own a pet alligator/tiger you take for walks around the neighborhood. then you could consider an aggresive out of control dog just a snack and not a nuisance.

there is one on my street,he is on a small chain and everytime i walk by him he comes after me.im terifed the chain will break or come unatached.

geepondy, I was thinking about this today because, well, I'm the type geek that thinks about web board conversations while at work. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

Make no mistake, pit bulls are very physically suited for combat. They're solid, quick thinking and moving, have a strong bite (duh) and have a good mass to height ratio for dog fighting (as compared to say the taller german shepherds that are more suited for taking down adults) and hence can be very dangerous animals.

But these characteristics don't make the pit bull dangerous, they're what make owners who want a dangerous dog choose pit bulls. The same guys who make attack prone pit bulls could just as easily train a retriever to be positively lethal to a child(ok, not my retriever, I still think my wife getting him fixed just ruined him...) but they don't bother because the dog's potential would be significantly less than a dog with a pit bull or rottweiler body. The trainer is going to choose a dog that is going to provide the maximum return on his time training it. Hence you get a heck of a lot more attack prone pit bulls in the world than you do retrievers, and ergo, a lot more news articles about pit bulls attacks.

Think of it this way, pro-basketball ball players are usually tall men, but not all tall men are good basketball players. Similarly, attack dogs are usually pit bulls, but not all pit bulls are good attack dogs. Banning the breed as inherently dangerous is like expecting a group of randomly chosen men over 6'2" to be able to beat the Bulls. (well ok, maybe they could this year.

I've got to agree with MichiganMan /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif I honestly don't know that many Pit Bulls. But I know sevearl Rotties and German Shepherds that are so frightening when they bark it will give you a fight or flight response just being in the next room if someone comes to the door. But the Rottweiler in question also loves my 3 year old and lets her climb all over her. These dogs were raised with zero tolerance for violence. They are not allowed to get out of hand at all and so they really don't. They are secure in their space and family and such.

And then on the other hand I've known a tiny little dachshund that would try to take my head off, or whatever limb it could get ahold of and other dogs that were so unpredictable and nasty that I wouldn't be in the same room with them due to how poorly they were controlled by their owners.

A little over a year ago in Wisconsin a 9 year-old girl was mauled to death by a rotweiler. She was visiting the home of another little girl, they were alone in the house, except for the 7 rotweilers that the other girl's mother and her boyfriend owned. They were playing with the dog, and it just turned on the girl. The dog owners were brought up on wrongful death charges, but they were reduced and I believe they both are not in jail right now. The same quote comes out of the dog owner's mouths when these stories hit the press: "Oh, it's just the sweetest dog, it never hurt anybody before..."

I would never trust a small child near a rotweiler, pit bull, or German shepard for that manner (I've never met a friendly German shpard in my life). You have to realize that a dog that is trained to obey a full-grown human doesn't always see a child as something to be obeyed. More likely it is prey to them. You will never hear an owner of an aggressive breed dog say that their dog is dangerous. If they felt any danger, the dog would be gone. Unfortunately, it takes a mauling to prove when a dog goes bad, and sometimes the owner refuses to accept it after that.

I think of these breeds of dog to be like carrying a loaded shotgun under your arm all the time. You have to take care not to let children touch it, you can't leave it unattended, and given enough time and careless handling, accidents may happen...

[ QUOTE ]
BF Hammer said:
The same quote comes out of the dog owner's mouths when these stories hit the press: "Oh, it's just the sweetest dog, it never hurt anybody before..."


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but have you ever watched the news?
That's what most family/friends/neighbors always say about some of the worst people out there.
Sometimes, it may even be true....

Pit bulls by themselves are not that agressive, nor are rotweillers. They have earned a bad reputation because of stupid owners. In some cities people breed them for fighting, or to guard their crack houses from the cops.

The highest number of dog attacks aginst their owners (as a percantage of dogs, not just in raw numbers) are German Shepards, and Dalmations.

BF Hammer, I did not mean to imply that I would leave my daughter alone with the dogs! That is not appropriate under any circumstances. She's been in the next room with them, but never without the authority of myself who the dogs know very well or the owner.

This is actually very important. In a situation where the dog knows it's owner/master/whatever is in charge it will be much more at ease. If the dog is alone then they often feel that they have to be the authority figure and they will be much more unhappy around strangers or in unusual circumstances.

Don't worry, my daughter will never be left alone with the dogs until she is old enough to fill that role.

I have posted about my next door neighbors dogs before. For the record, I think drugs HAVE to be involved over there.

In any case the keep (or kept, haven't heard ANY dogs over there lately) Pit Bulls. The people before them had two Pits that were okat to me, but killed my sisters little Pom.

I can't imagine those people TRAIN the dogs to be as bad as the most recent ones SEEMED to be. They are never HOME enough.

Now all Pits can't be THAT bad... but I see a yound lady walking a HUGE Rot all the time that I know if the dog wanted to, could leave her behind or drag her. And apparently that dog hasn't killed any other dogs. And my buddies have kept Dobbies for a long time and they are great dogs.

SO. You will NEVER catch me with a Pit. And I really can't imagine why most folk would keep one or more.

About dogs being used as nanny...
I have a Komondor, a very rare breed from Hungary, and altough it doesn't have a good rep, they are remarkable dogs.
During the second world war, they were almost extinct, due to the fact they are such good guardians.

A typical Komondor has no trouble whatsoever with a pitbull . due to the fact they have an "armoured" coat. It consists of dreadlocks, simular to the dreads seen in Jamaica. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

They are widely used as "nanny's"and are very effective at it... I wouldn't approach a house where a Komondor is keeping an eye on the kids...

They are a handful in everyday life, since it is a race not used to commands...

Once you have earned the thrust and respect of one, you will never want another dog though. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Joe, training a dog to be aggressive is not that hard, idiots like what your neighbor sounds like often do it without knowing or caring. One surefire way is keep them chained up outside with attention and human interaction always just out of reach. You'll get a frustrated, unsocialized dog that's a guaranteed lunger in very short order, and the trainer could have been on his couch watching Springer the whole time. This is a commonly employed technique by the animals that raise fighting dogs. They use a chain around four feet and keep the dog hungry to really put it on edge. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

ALL puppies need regular interaction, affection and socialization with adults, strangers, kids, other dogs, etc. Common sense you'd think, but then many adults don't even seem to practice this with their kids. The end results are often similar.