could someone tell me how likely jailtime will be?

aright.. i'm 19, and i'm on a lot of anti-anxiety and anti-panic medicines.. sometimes when i'm on them i do stupid crap like walk out of stores holding merchandise or drive with my headlights off at night.. i just get really forgetful.. (this has no effect on the judge's decision in my cases.. even after i had a pharmacist inform the judge of the effects of these drugs--ativan and xanax--on my behalf)

earlier this year i was arrested for shoplifting when i walked out of a local rite aid carrying a pack of batteries.. i apologized for my mistake and offered to pay, but the manager insisted on pressing charges, and had me arrested.. i had a lawyer for this court appearance and i got away with around a $120.00 fine..

now, tonight i walked out of the local walmart carrying a flashlight.. someone watching the surveillance tapes stopped me as i left the store and told me he was pressing charges and he did in fact call the police.. like b4, i apologized and offered to pay for the item, but this wasn't sufficient.. i was not arrested, but i have a court date in november and i'm going in without a lawyer.. there's really no way to prove i was making a mistake because of the security tape, i look like i'm just casually stealing things..

i was wondering if anyone has maybe been in a similar position, or could tell me how likely it'll be that i'd go to jail, this being my 2nd offense of the same class e misdemeanor.. (i'm pretty sure it's a class e)

thanks if you can lend me a helping hand..
-ryan

p.s. both times i was charged with shoplifting i had purchased items from the stores on my visits.. not even this made it believable that i was making a mistake and not intending to steal from the establishments..

p.p.s. (i'm also now banned from every rite aid in maine and every walmart, worldwide.. i'm running out of pharmacies for my meds!)

If they don't believe you on the accounts of:

1) You've done this before and have explained to them that you are on drugs.
2) These drugs affect your mind and do stupid stuff like that.
3) You have apologized and offered to pay and have explained your case to the manager/security person.
4) Your doctor hopefully explaining this.

Then I don't know what they're smoking. Sorry and good luck.

Dan

Re: could someone tell me how likely jailtime will

Ryan, seriously, you need better answers than we are likely to come up with. If at all possible locally contact anyone you can think of who might have links to those who might be able to help.

First thoughts are ministers/priests, legal aid societies, local hospital, medical association, or even your doctor(s).

I'm afraid you're going to need some local assistance to 1) convince the judge that these are not voluntary actions, 2) convince the judge that these actions are directly caused by one or a combination of the prescribed drugs you are taking, 3) help develop some way to prevent recurrence, 4) convince the judge that the developed plan is better than incarceration, fine, or other penalty.

Good luck, Ryan.

Re: could someone tell me how likely jailtime will

yes.. thank you.. that's first on the list for tomorrow morning..

the judge here is just sorta hard on teenagers.. and i really can't afford to have something like jailtime on a criminal record, and can't stand the thought of it since i'd have to leave my mother alone for the duration of the sentence..

i really don't think the judge will give me a break due to the medications, since last time i had a pharmacist provide the information about the effects of the drugs to him on my behalf, and when i was there i told him i wouldn't take them while i was shopping.. but sometimes i find myself needing them just to stay able-minded..

but i will try to find the best way to show him that a developed plan is better than jailtime, etc.. since this seems like the best thing to do in my situation.

thanks alot for the support.. the anxiety is killer.

Re: could someone tell me how likely jailtime will

Tomas is right in that you need serious advice from "experts" other than CPF (unless we have some attorneys in this field).

Sorry I can't help, but I do have a question. When you walked out of those stores, were you plainly and visibly holding the merchandise in your hands? If the items were stuck in your pocket, under your shirt, etc., it may be a tough battle to "prove" the inadvertent nature of the incidents. But that is just a highly, uninformed opinion.

Re: could someone tell me how likely jailtime will

tomas: if it's not too much of your time, could you give me an example of a developed plan? a few different meanings for the term are cycling thru my head..

flashfan: unfortunately not.. in both cases, i had stuck them in my pocket without hesitation.. i already know i can't reveal the truth to the situation.. hell, it sounds far fetched, there's no argument from me about that.. i'm really just hoping to convince the judge to be lenient.. even a fine or community service would be okay with me.. i clearly have to settle with some sort of punishment.. but i don't feel comfortable having this on my record or leaving my mother alone..

-ryan

Re: could someone tell me how likely jailtime will

if ya have a shrink and have its on pappers that ya have probs i think you will be ok just have to do comuinty service.

Re: could someone tell me how likely jailtime will

Wear a suit and tie. Borrow one from a friend if necessary. Don't go in looking like a slob or they will treat you like one.

Don't assume that this judge won't be more apt to listen to your pharmacist than the last one was. They are people and except in cases of minimum sentencing they have a very high degree of leeway in what they do to you.

If you can't bring your lawyer, doctor or pharmacist to court, bring a letter from them explaining in one page or less what meds your on, why you're on them and that they believe that your problems are due to the medication that you are taking.

don't argue, don't interrupt, pay attention, be respectful, speak up when you're talking, make eye contact with the judge when he's talking to you. This stuff sounds obvious, but I was amazed at how many younger people came to court thinking they were going to get up before the judge in a T-Shirt and jeans and challenge the police officer that gave them a ticket and be believed! I saw people that were rude too and expected to be believed. They were not.

I can't give you any specific advice, I am not a lawyer. My advise isn't even worth what you're paying for it. You've got a difficult time as it's happened before. You REALLY should talk to a lawyer. There are those that will represent you for little money up front. If you can avoid having a real problem on your record, it's worth going into a little bit of debt for now. Don't just assume you can't afford or can't get one, do some work in the yellow pages!

If you have a lawyer they can meet with the guy representing the store and explain your predicament to them. It is possible that they will see reason and agree to a lesser sentence or probation or any number of things. If you get a good lawyer you won't even have to talk to the judge. The lawyers will tell him what both parties agreed to and he'll sign it. If they will be reasonable that is the way to go!

You know what they say. The man who represents himself has a fool for a client. Really, make some phone calls and get some real legal advise. If you can't afford to get someone into court with you put $100 on a credit card and get half an hours worth of advise in their office. DO IT! The other guy will have his lawyer, and you already have done this once.

Re: could someone tell me how likely jailtime will

Get off the meds?

Re: could someone tell me how likely jailtime will

u will not get jail time. the jails are so over crowded but ya must prove ya intent. im on meds to i know how it is
im on some stuff that at first i just slept 3 days id do stuff like u but thanks god id always cathch my self before i left store im bad at carrying stuff under arm and forgeting it but i always look under arms before i check out.never put it in my pocket though

Re: could someone tell me how likely jailtime will

Looking good in front of a judge or trying to get out of jailtime is the least of your worries right now. Since it seems that this has already happened twice...wouldn't a better idea be to go look for a permanent solution to your problems? I have trouble believing that anti-anxiety drugs can cause enough problems to make you FORGET that you just took something from a store. I mean, the only possible way I could see such a scenario is if you had anterograde amnesia with an inability to form new memories. If the medication does preform such an effect, then maybe they should do some more tests on you. If not, then if you know you have a problem, maybe get into a habit of checking your pockets before you exit stores? Millions of American's are currently on some type of medication altering their emotional behavior, but I've never heard of a case like this. If your disorder requires so much medication that it could have THAT kind of effect on you, then maybe you need to find a different way to treat your disorder, because your state of mind could be both dangerous to yourself and others. Perhaps you could specify the specific disorder you have to give us all a better understanding?

None of what I said is meant to be brash or taken in offense. I'm merely trying to get more information as to the cause of your problems. It seems that is much more important than trying to get leinency, because you know it's just going to happen again. You need to get to the root of the problem and fix it by looking at the big picture. I would recommend a psychiatric specialist more than a lawyer.

Re: could someone tell me how likely jailtime will

Are you seeing a therapist? Would they provide assistance in your case? What about witnesses to testify as to your character?

Unfortunately James S. is correct, good appearance and presentation can help your case. I personally believe that a judge should be capable of rendering fair and impartial verdict regardless of the defendants appearance or ability to present themselves cordially or eloquently, at least if they are accurately fulfilling their duties, but alas some seem to compare their appointment to that of royalty and believe their judgements extend to the realms of fashion, education and etiquette as well, so you'd best look sharp and be on best behavior.

Good luck!

TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Re: could someone tell me how likely jailtime will

[ QUOTE ]
hawkhkg11 said:
Looking good in front of a judge or trying to get out of jailtime is the least of your worries right now. Since it seems that this has already happened twice...wouldn't a better idea be to go look for a permanent solution to your problems? I have trouble believing that anti-anxiety drugs can cause enough problems to make you FORGET that you just took something from a store. I mean, the only possible way I could see such a scenario is if you had anterograde amnesia with an inability to form new memories. If the medication does preform such an effect, then maybe they should do some more tests on you. If not, then if you know you have a problem, maybe get into a habit of checking your pockets before you exit stores? Millions of American's are currently on some type of medication altering their emotional behavior, but I've never heard of a case like this. If your disorder requires so much medication that it could have THAT kind of effect on you, then maybe you need to find a different way to treat your disorder, because your state of mind could be both dangerous to yourself and others. Perhaps you could specify the specific disorder you have to give us all a better understanding?

None of what I said is meant to be brash or taken in offense. I'm merely trying to get more information as to the cause of your problems. It seems that is much more important than trying to get leinency, because you know it's just going to happen again. You need to get to the root of the problem and fix it by looking at the big picture. I would recommend a psychiatric specialist more than a lawyer.

[/ QUOTE ]im on same type a meds i can see it hapening i nver had it happen but some will realy knock ya out .

Re: could someone tell me how likely jailtime will

Yeah, my Dad had to go on anti-anxiety meds to deal with blood pressure spikes that got worse if he thought about it too much, and the stuff really made him complacent and kinda dopey for awhile, he would forget what he was doing and have to really concentrate to remember, happens to me sometimes and I'm not even on meds! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Re: could someone tell me how likely jailtime will

While I haven't been on any anti-anxiety medications, I have had idiosyncratic reactions to drugs before. One of them sort of disconnected different parts of my thought processes from each other, I.E. you could tell me that grapes are purple, grapes are round, and grapes are a fruit and if asked to discribe a grape would say it was a purple round fruit.

However if you asked me to name a purple round fruit, I could not ... It turned memory into a one-way function. I could understand and remember d=a+b+c, but could not reverse it to a+b+c=d. I could not even see the problem with that.

Drove me nuts until they took me off that drug (Tagamet, to reduce production of stomach acid ... now available - in lower doses - over the counter).

Anyway, Ryan, back to the immediate problem. By developing a plan and presenting it, I guess I'm hoping that someone you consult with can come up with some sort of plan or idea that would give you a set procedure to follow to keep this problem from happening.

I don't know what it might be - if I did I would just tell you. It might require sort of 'checking in' with the store people when you first walk in, then checking out with them before you leave and going through your pockets/packages. It might just require that you reach agreement with them to just do it yourself. I don't know, and without understanding in more detail, I can't seem to get a grip on the options.

As to getting assistance - a lot of bigger city "lawyer associations" offer referrals to lawyers so you can discuss a problem with them (often for a free half hour) just to see if they might be able to help. The remaining time is often at the full-bore price, but some are reasonable and will work a deal for time pay or lowered rates. Some will even take some cases "pro bono publico" ("for the public good") and do the work for free (and write it off on their taxes).

Seriously, though, check with as many options as you can stomach. somewhere out there may be just the right person who fully understands the problem and has a solution. Don't get discouraged, and don't try to do it all at once - you'll burn yourself out.

Another thought - some courts have "advocates" as part of their staff who will try to assist a person in getting the right kind of help, etc. Check and see.

Again, good luck, Ryan,

Re: could someone tell me how likely jailtime will

I spent my first 10 years out of college as a Department Store Security Manager, arresting/detaining/testifing against shoplifters, con artists, credit card thiefs.

I can tell you this, in California we have a penal code (section 666), Petty Theft with a prior conviction. If you serve any time (including one day) it could be bumped up to a felony and you can be sentenced to State Prison. This is even for a $6 flashlight, so....

First of all, stay the hell out of stores and have someone else do your shopping. The more of these incident that occur, the deeper your hole will be. Even if you are believed in court, you are going to cause tremendous problems for yourself.

Second, simply walking out of the store without paying is not necessarily a crime of theft. My company required us to be able to prove several elements before we would prosecute. In your case the most important is "the intent to permanently deprive the owner thereof"
I watched and nearly approached a woman walk out of my store with a pair of sweatpants that she did not pay for. As I started to hit the door I saw her hold them up, as if holding them up to show someone. I paused and just stood by. Well that is exactly what she was doing. A teenage boy was in a car parked across the walkway, he opened the door, he was in a cast from foot to hip. The woman was trying to get his "ok" to see if that was what he wanted. The woman walked back inside paid for it and left. Even so in a case like that, I probibly would have released her w/o turning her over to the custody of the police. I probibly only refered half my detentions to the police or DA for follow up.

What I'm saying is, maybe your attorney's approach should be that you did not intend to permanently deprive the store and they did not prove a necessary element in the crime of theft. That is if your laws are similar to California's. How do you prove intent? If you ripped the light out of it's packaging so you could conceal it or if it was concealed, if you removed price tags, if you were "scoping out" the area looking to evade store employees, CCTV camera's etc. etc. All of these tend to convince a jury of your intent and state of mind.

Good luck to you. I doubt if they will give you any jail time. In California the jails are so crowded, most Police depts are given orders to cite and release unless there is some violence involved.

GregR

P.S. I never lost a shoplift case.