Cerakote Check In! All brands with coating!

The lights I have in Cerakote are: a Malkoff MD2, and a HDS 170, both in Orange.



I thought we could communicate any problems with this finish here.



The colors are fun, and I love the technology behind Cerakote. I hope the troubles with it can be fixed.



Both of mine are fine so far, however, I will report any problems, or none as I use the lights here.



Wishing all Cerakote flashlight owners all the best,



RL



PS...on my spell checker Cerakote comes up as crackpot... Just funny!

I Just do not understand this coating. My orange HDS Cerakote is wearing off, and the test I put it through since getting in a month or so ago is carrying it in my pocket around the house, evenings, and when off duty. It is wearing off on the top.

This could not be in the same league as even HA-II anodizing, I have had, and have Mini Mag lights, and promo-lights that have worn better.

Some companies HDA says it is anodized with type HA III then Cerakoted, others say the aluminum must be taken down to bare finish first before application.

Somehow, I think this is a failure, at least on flashlights, and the all companies need to make a statement because of the premium cost involved, and it looks like HDS has been the first to step up to the plate by discontinuing the coating, and I compliment them for this.

I see my original post somehow mysteriously disappeared. I am merely trying to edify this community regarding Cerakote and the undeserved reputation it has been getting as of late. When I have the time, I have decided to post a video of a TypeII vs. Cerakote abuse test; from blast cabinet to real world abuse, as I already know what the result will be.
For anyone who is interested, below is my original post, minus a few pithy comments. Maybe this time it will stay up? I learned years ago to save posts for reference, and in case they mysteriously disappear.

"I have been a Cerakoter for over 4 years now. I believe there are some undue expectations in this community. I have extensive experience with all of these coatings (Gun and knife coatings through high-temp automotive coatings). I also have extensive media blasting experience up to and including concourse automotive restoration blasting on $180,000 cars. It requires basically the same amount of energy to remove Cerakote as it does to remove TypeII. TypeII has an advantage with edge wear because it is an ionic bond, but the advantage is slight. I have EDC'ed our coatings on guns and knives for years now. I have been carrying one of these maligned HDS lights (great product BTW) Cerakoted by me personally. It rides in the same pocket alongside my keys. It has worn EXACTLY like any other TypeII light I have ever carried and I have carried SF lights since they first came out as "Laser Products". That's right at 20 years now (damn, I forgot how old I was 'till I remembered that)! Let's compare apples to apples.

BTW, some anodized surfaces will allow Cerakote to adhere, but they are few and far between. Cerakote is best applied to a "profiled" (blasted) surfaces to maximize the mechanical bond. Sometimes when we coat high end optics ($2,000-$3,000 S&B, US Optics, etc), we do an adhesion test to see if Cerakote will adhere, but this is only done when abrasion is not much of a concern. It can NEVER be top coated over products like HA or DLC regardless of what some jack wagon has told you.

If your lights require the utmost in durability, by all means stick with HA or DLC, Green/Black T, etc. However, you will not get vibrant colors, unless you consider black or grey vibrant. There is a place for all these coatings. For example, Cerakote is IR negative whereas all anodizing shines like a sore thumb in the IR spectrum. Cerakote is impervious to chemicals that eat aluminum and the anodized surfaces of aluminum. It is what it is; nothing more, nothing less.

There's a reason knife and gun manufacturers such as S&W, Sig Sauer have already switched to Cerakote.

On my last post, a kind gentleman asked why I haven't posted here more often given my knowledge. That was a very kind remark and I appreciate the compliment. The reason is simple. Over the years, I have grown tired of the same old forum dog piles that crop up regardless of the forum. "

Regards,

Dr. Jeff Bivins, President
Armor-Clad Industries LLC
www.armor-clad.com
FFL/SOT

DR.

Thank you for putting your post back up. I do have to ask some questions on this coating.

Your quote: It can NEVER be top coated over products like HA or DLC regardless of what some jack wagon has told you.

HDS: Web site today: The bezel is made from stainless steel with an orange baked ceramic finish. The body is made from aerospace aluminum protected with military Type 3 hard anodize and then covered with an orange baked ceramic finish.

HDS deleated the Cerakote colored light info, but left it up on the bezel area. Is HDS wrong? Do you do the Cerakote for HDS?

Dr., I ask you...how the hell do you think I should feel about this finish wearing off in my pocket, with no other items in it, worn only at home?

And, if I may ask, in a state of worn off powder, is Creakote a risk to people's health?

For me...this is a failure on flashlights, and ill-prepared aluminum. And, I wish it were not the case, I have plenty to spend on this hobby. Been a good first quarter.

Your thoughts will be appreciated.

Best wishes,

Thank you,

RL

Cerakote will not top coat over HA. It was likely a misunderstanding on the part of HDS. I have had a large AR manufacturer that we do coatings for tell me that other coaters, in this case FailZero Exo Tech coating, told them their product could be top-coated with Cerakote. This is not the case. If a coating has a high degree of lubricity, nothing will want to adhere to it. If it is a surface prep problem the coating will flake off to the substrate surface. This doesn't seem to be the complaint.

The bezels are Cerakote over stainless. Yes, we do (now did) the coatings for HDS, Malkoff and others.

The finish has worn off in your pocket?! That is highly unusual, and if it happened to me I would not be pleased. Please email pics, as if it is a coating failure and not an abuse issue, it is warrantied. Our email can be found on our website. There was a complaint from someone about our coatings some time back where the guy had taken a Scotchbrite pad to the surface and had the audacity to complain that it was rubbing off. You can remove rust with a Scotchbrite for heaven's sake! What in the hell do people expect? If someone wants a practically indestructible surface, as it appears many of you do, then have your items DLC'ed. Bring lots of money though...

"Is worn off Cerakote a risk to people's health?" That would be a question for the manufacturer. If it is, then I and my family are screwed as we all use these lights and other items on a regular basis and they are wearing normally. However, I wouldn't make a habit of consuming the particles, that's for sure. The MDS information can be found on www.nicindustries.com


I will try to post pics...

Regards,

Dr. Jeff Bivins, President
Armor-Clad Industries LLC
www.armor-clad.com
FFL/SOT

Here's part of my EDC. The light rides alongside the keys and the Glock rides in a kydex holster that wears finishes like sandpaper.





Here's a closeup of the muzzle area showing wear through multiple layers of Cerakote. The light is wearing on the high spots (like any coating) and where the light has been dropped. You can see the gouge in the aluminium.

This light was coated in the same batch as your light. Why has mine worn normally, yet yours has worn from contact with cotton cloth? It just doesn't make sense. I need to see pictures at a minimum. We inspect all items for abuse. We had a return recently where the guy claimed he was disappointed in the coating. After close inspection, it had been dropped and dragged on what appears to be concrete gouging the metal. Even DLC will not hold up to what the parent metal cannot stand. In fact, I think that light is still in the shop.


This light has been dropped as the telltale signs of metal gouging are readily apparent. This fine manufacturer refunded this person's money! I sure as hell wouldn't have done that. He sent it back to me to determine if there was some sort of problem with that batch of coating. It was obvious that the light had taken a hit on something harder than aluminium. Again, no coating will withstand a force that damages the parent metal. We tested the coating in other areas to determine if there was a batch problem with the coating. There was no issue to be found. This is simply a case of unrealistic expectations, as I expect most of these complaints about Cerakote "failures" on lights will turn out to be. Maybe one day there will be a kryptonite coating that will please even Superman, but it ain't out there as of yet. In fact, Cerakote is over 10X more durable than the two competitive coatings. I see people getting their lights "dipped", and Cerakote is hundreds of times more durable than that stuff.




When I used to carry a stock SF E2D with the old KL4 head, they had some issues with that LED unit. I had to return it a few times and I called their wonderful customer service department to inquire about the failures. The head tech, a nice lady, knew my name and was very familiar with the light. I asked how could she possibly remember that, and her response was that it was famous in the warranty dept. for how beat-up the light was. I use these things. I have carried numerous TypeII lights and the wear patterns are practically identical to the wear patterns with Cerakote. Sure, I wish the coating were more durable, but it is what it is.

Next up, time allowing, I'll post an abuse test of Cerakote and TypeII...

Most of the type 3 I've seen from surefire appears to have some sort of sealer in the finish. I can't be certain since there's alot of variation in the appearance of hard anodizing but that could be an issue. It could also be a peculiarity with cerakote, or ceramic loaded coatings in general, every finish requires a certain surface profile for best adhesion. I can say that cerakote needs more care in its application since it has to be mixed in the proper ratios just before spraying, it's why I haven't pursued it for DIY use, it seems much more suited to small production runs due to the hassle of setup.

I'm more familiar with 2400 series gunkote and Norell Molyresin, both state that anodized surfaces are suitable for coating, and Gunkote in particular recommends that aluminum parts be anodized or alodined prior. Bare TypeIII should be a good base for a coating, it's porous and the coating should hook into it better than a fresh sandblast.

Yoda4561 said:

I'm more familiar with 2400 series gunkote and Norell Molyresin, both state that anodized surfaces are suitable for coating, and Gunkote in particular recommends that aluminum parts be anodized or alodined prior. Bare TypeIII should be a good base for a coating, it's porous and the coating should hook into it better than a fresh sandblast.

Click to expand...

Gunkote is one of the competing products I mentioned before. The independent Taber Scratch tests show Cerakote to be approximately 10X more durable. We have found HA (TypeIII) to be a poor surface to bond to, not because of the porosity, but due to its' resistance to molecular bonding. This is one of its' chief characteristics and why it is a very durable surface treatment. We have tried numerous permutations of top coating, and we have had to re-coat a number of items due to a lack of bonding on HA. It does not compare to a blast profile in terms of surface area and bonding. I can't speak for the other competing products as we don't use them in any way.

The silence is deafening...

RedLed: PM sent. I anxiously await your reply.

Jeff Bivins
Armor-Clad

I agree on the premature wear, On the pieces I've done it's quite apparent that any amount of rubbing with a soft cloth will not harm gunkote, and that was testing one of their more cosmetic (read, less durable) color finishes. An oiled piece of 000 steel wool didn't damage a high gloss finish, and attacking it with a coin or stiff brass brush with no oil didn't do a thing to it. Only hard impacts with other hard pieces of steel or concrete showed any effect, and steel-coating impacts usually just result in smoothing the matte coatings. Unless there's something strange going on (lots of sand in the pocket??) cerakote shouldn't be wearing at all.

PM replied to. I am busy, Dude!

I'm very busy... we are making major buying decisions for my company since we may not be able to get some things from Japan for a while, long while or ever.

Not to mention the cost of things could go up. Plus, I know many people in Japan, and want to buy as many things made in Japan, to help them out.

This disaster is far worse than you can think of.

I am also going to buy a ton of knives from Japan, and give them out to people who visit my office, and give out to hotel staff, assistants, waiters, or anyone who assists us on location, and other people that help us with things.

I gave brand new Spyderco Endura's to all my gardener's this afternoon (With the usual beer/sodas) and they were so thankful.

Spydercos for people who help you, eh??

Hmmm, I'm sure I could help you with SOMEthing! :thinking:

:devil:

RedLed said:

I gave brand new Spyderco Enduras to all my gardeners this afternoon (With the usual beer/sodas) and they were so thankful.

Click to expand...

I hope you did not neglect to reward your footmen, valets, housemaids, stewards, coachmen, sous-chefs, scullions and under-butlers in a similarly appropriate manner.

You know, DM, if I did not know you were from the UK, with British wit, I may be offended. You may want to re-read my post, as it deals with a sad and serious nature, and I find your post in poor taste.

Ned Redway

Part of your post referred to the earthquake in Japan, but that was not the part I quoted and replied to.

You found my post to be "in poor taste"; I found yours to be rather pompous and condescending, and an open goal for some gentle mockery.

I think we'll leave it at that, unless you wish to continue by PM.

I don't wish to stir the pot really, but I have to say I found DM's post QUITE amusing, and it caused me to chuckle aloud to myself.

Offensive? Hardly.

Well, why would a moderator try to start an issue, it is your job to be the referee, not insult people. All I did was give some things to people who help me.

I like to give things away, that is far from pompous.

I will stop now since I do not wish to continue.

RedLed said:

You know, DM, if I did not know you were from the UK, with British wit, I may be offended. You may want to re-read my post, as it deals with a sad and serious nature, and I find your post in poor taste.

Ned Redway

Click to expand...

You are right ! Have this miscreant whipped by your guards and thrown in the pit !

BoarHunter said:

You are right ! Have this miscreant whipped by your guards and thrown in the pit !

Click to expand...

Ok, that is funny! He should be aware of my protective detail.

Before I leave the house, my advance team arrives at the location I will be going to, and they make sure everything is secure. Once I clear the country club gate, I have a pilot lead sedan, then I ride in second in my custom SUV, and I have a straggler SUV behind me to take up the rear. Behind the straggler is any local press, or writers who may be working on my life story, and I even have my own photographer (he forgot that) they ride in a mini bus. The caravan never is broken. On days I feel ill, we add an ambulance.

Once I arrive at my destination, my detail blends in as not to attract attention. We also have other details who stand post 24 hours at my plush, wel-lit, high-tech, heavily decorated office-studio headquarters complex, and at our home.

So, I live in a bubble, or package. He Can't get me! That is how I roll. I better not mention the private jet...ok it is a re-conditioned Boeing 727.

Most people have this image of photographers that is somewhere between Austin Powers and James Bond. They have no idea the amount of schmoozing and ego smoothing that goes into pulling a successful shoot off... and how much palm-greasing and how many "favours" it takes to have everyone help out. So, when they heard you mention "assistants, waiters, or anyone who assists us on location", they assumed that you are rolling in cash and not really working for a living, Red. Everyone knows that photographers just have to press the button and the camera takes care of everything else, right?

I feel your pain, fellow photog! Thicker skin would help... I'd have probably ignored DM51's comment, or at least assumed he meant it in good humour. Either way, what you are doing is a nice gesture and should be appreciated, not belittled.

Now, so as to be on-topic: It's threads like these that are the reason why I still haven't got a cerakoted HDS Clicky. I'm still trying to figure out if the coating is tough enough. That said, after reading some of the more reasoned and well thought-out comments here, I will probably end up buying one now.