Windows to Power ATMs in 2005

"Within three years, most bank machines that dispense cash will run on the Windows operating system, according to a study published last week."

Link to article


Not sure if this is good news or not, but thought I'd share it none the less.
Mike

Any bets?

http://acc.glowport.com/crt363.html

[ QUOTE ]
yam said:
Not sure if this is good news or not, but thought I'd share it none the less.
Mike

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm thinking bad, but who knows... maybe they will start to dispense free case every other day when they get hit with one of the latest vulnerabilities. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

-Mike

Do you think they will come with a reboot key? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

They'll add CTRL ALT and DEL keys to the keypad.

i can see atms displaying a bsod while spitting out cash now.wheres my basket?

Let's see, there's $10,000 in my balance, depositing $1,000...

UH OH! Fatal exception... uh, little help please?

I'll stop using ATM's at that point.

UNIX is the way to go if they want 'open standards' in addition to good security and easy of recoding.

Seems like a bad decision to me (given M$'s 'security' track record)

When you see an MSW 'START' icon in the lower left corner of your ATM screen, it is time to change banks ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif



(UNIX and PIKE and the OS's put out by Tandem are the proper, fully redundent, fault tolerant, solid, well tested sorts of things I want running MY bank's ATMs. Thing is, if other banks with bleeding-edge idiots in their IT departments start running flakey OS's on theirs, they can screw up the good ones just by being connected, etc. Sort of like everyone getting affected by MS only worms and viruses on-line - the crap and overhead from the sick systems kills everything else. All that needs to happen is one bad security breach on a flaky ATM OS and everyone's in trouble, even the well run systems. Remember, even ATMs from other banks can withdraw all YOUR money ... )

Tom

Watch it with the ATM jokes folks. You're now entering my area of expertise, which I take great pride in.

Stop using them at that point? Unix is the way to go? What has become of the computing community. Where did we ever get the idea that a computer is it's OS. An OS is only an interface of convenience between a user and the computer. A dedicated utility such as an ATM doesn't need an operating system at all.

It's no wonder that computers have become an insecure-security-hole-infested device. Everyone has forgotten how to use them. Even Microsoft and the others are programming in high level languages and using compilers to build code consisting of an unlimited number of library, shared files and runtime routines.

People seem to think a machine is designed to run an OS, and have forgotten that it's the other way around. An OS is designed to run a machine.

ATMs don't need no stinkin' OS. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rant.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

Right, Empath, an ATM should be not much more than a "glass Teletype" - a simple, bulletproof, dumb terminal that has very limited functions: Accept limited types of input from the customer and their cards, provide limited types of screen and printed output, and control the deposit drawer and money distribution mechanics. (And "Fail safe," of course. If it gets sick, shut down and scream for help.)

Those functions should be extremely well defined, not have unneeded crossovers between functions, and LIMITED. I can't stress that enough.

I'm not sure how much autonomy an ATM needs, but it shouldn't be all that much. All the "thinking" should be done by the smarter, larger, better physically protected machines they talk to at the other end of their data links. (Thing is, putting MSW OS's into THOSE machines is happening, too. Personally I think that is a bigger problem.)

The worrysome part is some of the folks thinking several years out appear to be putting less limited (more versatile) functions into the ATM end, and talking about needing OS's. Maybe it would be nice if an ATM could keep right on functioning when it's modem or leased line goes down, but if it is at the expense of system security, I hope it doesn't happen.

I'd personally much rather have 4 or 5 limited functions that can be relied upon with little worry, than 200 functions at the expense of always wondering when the next problem will crop up.

There is an advantage in some things in keeping them simple.

Actually machines are being designed around the windows OS. The first standard I remember seeing was PC97. A lot of the hardware features you have today were designed in part by microsoft.

I have seen other systems running windows. Since pc hardware is so cheap now, its cheaper to buy a windows NT embedded license and a specialized pc motherboard than it is to design and build a specialized system.

The good side is those embedded pc systems typically don't run the same windows XP/2k/etc as your desktop rather XP or NT embedded which won't have outlook or outlook express or internet explorer, those embedded os's are more modular (much like unix) the way all the windows OS's should be/have been.

On the other hand I'm sure there will be some service like RPC that is a very low level and while Windows powered ATM's won't be directly targeted they will be vulnerable. Even if they decide to run the Windows CE OS. The iPaq popularity should ensure that someone targets it (ipaq) and as a by product ATM systems. I predict there will be at least one widespread news makeing ATM outage due to some sort of virus. The SQLSlammer worm has already caused one such ATM system outage although not infecting the atm's themselves rather the back end SQL servers that are the back end to that banks ATM system.

Folks, the problem is that Banks are wanting to use the ATMS to do more than just dispense currency. They want to turn them into an advertising tool, to run commercials on them while you're waiting for your money to be dispense. This requires some type of operating system at the ATM level. I don't agree with the concept. I'm just telling you the direction ATMS are heading.

run commercials on them? I'll just start walking into the bank again and they will have to hire more tellers. Course, I won't be able to get that emergency $20 at 3 in the morning, guess I'll have to plan ahead a bit better.

I've been meaning to put all my money in a bank in the bahamas anyway, that way I'll spend less.

Back when I did some work on a host credit project to accept debit cards the IBM guys we were working with gave me the impression that most ATM's ran OS/2. (And at the same time a lot of banking computers that they were connected to ran on NeXT machines, so they basically were running on what is now a Mac) Sounds like some of you folks know more about it, how about filing us in on the history?

I've got to say, I wasn't the lead on that project but I am amazed that any debit transaction goes through at all, ever. (they didn't in the beginning anybody remember how often your bank would refuse cause their computers were down?) They have a lot of the kinks worked out now, but it's still based on some rickety premises...

It was my understanding at the time (only about 6 or 7 years ago now I think) that it was illegal to store a pin number. Or at least the banks didn't allow you to. So it was not possible to process an offline debit transaction. You can store the CC number and run that later, but you can't do that with a debit card. This was because they have some recourse with the credit card companies, but if someone hacks the database and empties you account it's harder to fix.

So the one reason mentioned above should not happen, but it might...

Playing me adds and selling screen time is probably more likely. How much you want to bet they continue to charge the fee anyway? If I have to watch a commercial, will they limit it to the 7 seconds it takes to dispense the cash? Or will they slow everyone in line up by making me sit through the whole thing before I can get away...

Oh, the mind reels...

MS Windows on ATMS??!!?? GAG!!

Win98/SE comes with ATM software, though it requires special authorization just to install it. A normal user cannot install it, as the install is automatically refused.

Fortunately, I don't use ATMs.

Just one sidelight, James: About half the time my debit card is being processed as a credit card - no pin being used - while at a merchant. Depends on which network they are tied into and the rates for processing differ.

For those where I have used a pin I can look at my account on-line immediately and the transaction has already completed in real-time. For those done without a pin there is up to a 3-4 day delay before the transaction hits, sometimes. For those, since they were already approved, the bank will go ahead and pay them even if it creates an overdraft.

I've had the lovely experience of a merchant double charging me and creating an overdraft situation on my debit card (this was for a year's service from my ISP).

Some of the ATM's I go to already default to a limited number of advertising screens when not otherwise doing something. I find it annoying because a person tends to read the whole thing in detail just in case there is something about your transaction you need to know embedded. Talk about a captive audience. (I first ran into that at kiosk ATM run by a bank at a mall in Portland, Oregon.)

Oh! And if you use a teller instead of an ATM? If they need to hire more tellers to handle walk-ins, that's no problem - they'll just institute a charge for using teller time - some already have done that. (First Interstate did that for awhile, here, until they were bought by another bank.)

(My bank - Wells Fargo - just instituted a monthly charge for savings accounts if the balance is under $1000 - they didn't like the cost to them of small savings accounts ... there was no profit. The charge is greater than any possible interest.)

It won't solve the ATM problem becaue they're not dropping them all over the place, but if you've got one close by the answer is Credit Union.

Hehehehe ... Certainly doesn't solve the ATM problem, credit unions are putting ATM's all over the place - here's one of the local ones here: BECU ATM Locations.

Problem with most credit unions (I've been a member of one for over 30 years) is the limited number of physical locations as opposed to bank branches. For mine I'd have to drive just over 40 miles, one way, to get there - their only two locations are in the city I used to work in. Anything that need a face-to-face or document signing becomes more difficult.

Another limitation is "membership requirements." There IS a tiny CU about 3 miles from here, but I don't 'qualify' to join.


<font color="blue"> I'm sorry, ATM not connected, press any key to continue </font>
<font color="red"> Shop at SAFEWAY today. Artichokes $.39, 16oz. Latté $3. </font>

Tomas, when you use your card as a credit card it's processed through the regular credit card channels, meaning it goes through the regular visa batch process and what have you. When you use it as a debit it needs to find your individual bank. Visa can easily be stored and run through later when the lines come back up. This sometimes leads to interesting problems as when the company I worked for found a big in the system and did 30 repetative charges for several hundred dollars to a guys card. The problem had to do with the lines crashing before the ack came back so our end just queued it up to run again /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif But it didn't cause any problems cause when the bookeeper at the store looked at the books the next morning she was able to back out all the problems and nothing ever appeared on the persons statement. And they wouldn't have been liable for it even if we hadn't of caught it! With a debit card I don't think the laws have really gelled yet about what you are liable for and when they can charge you fees for orverdrawing the account and whatnot.

And your other mention of locations, how can a bank afford to have a branch on every damn corner? Our bank here and in other cities we've lived seem to have a "no square mile unsullied by a branch of our bank" there is literally one after another every mile or less as you drive down some of the larger streets. That much cost a fortune! And it's my money...

Open more ATM's, don't put windows in them and close some of those branch buildings, wouldn't that be cheaper? As long as the ATM isn't going to try to get me to buy life insurance or viagra (hmm, perhaps they could just dispense that right from the machine? Wow, the possibilities are endless...) I don't need a teller very often.