Driver for Multi-XML Mag

Aepoc

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I'm looking for suggestions on what driver to use for a multi XM-L light. I would like to run 3 or 4 XM-L's at as close to 3 amps as I can. I will be using 3x17670's in series for my power source (11.1volts). I don't need any other brightness levels or anything special like that... Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance.
 

alpg88

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der witchel p7 driver would work great, up to 4 leds.
 

Aepoc

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ma sha, doesn't adding the resistor reduce efficiency? also why would one wire two of the leds between the switch and the board as shown in the original triple P7 multipux wiring method? Wouldn't those two leds be unregulated?
 

Justin Case

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ma sha, doesn't adding the resistor reduce efficiency? also why would one wire two of the leds between the switch and the board as shown in the original triple P7 multipux wiring method? Wouldn't those two leds be unregulated?

The total Vf from those two LEDs drops the Vin to the 7135-based driver to an acceptable level (less than 6V). The two LEDs are regulated sort of indirectly since all 3 LEDs are in series and the 2.8A current from the driver and through the third LED also passes through the other two LEDs.
 

Aepoc

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would the higher voltage cause damage or a shorter life for the first two leds? I can't seem to find much information on the maximum voltage that XM-L's can handle... does this mean that as long as I have a driver that puts out 3 amps, I can wire these in series and don't have to worry about voltage? the TaskLED driver I have been looking at has a max voltage of 24v and the Vf of a single XM-L is 3.35v...
 

Aepoc

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Mettee, your link doesn't work

Alpg, thanks for the wichtel advice, I'm looking into it... found somebody who is trying to build essentially the same thing as I
 

Justin Case

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would the higher voltage cause damage or a shorter life for the first two leds? I can't seem to find much information on the maximum voltage that XM-L's can handle... does this mean that as long as I have a driver that puts out 3 amps, I can wire these in series and don't have to worry about voltage? the TaskLED driver I have been looking at has a max voltage of 24v and the Vf of a single XM-L is 3.35v...

Max voltage for an XM-L depends on how good your heat sinking is. The XM-L is spec'ed to 3A drive, which corresponds on average to about 3.35V Vf. Since all of the XM-Ls will see 2.8A, as long as your heat sinking is adequate, you should be running within spec.

The TaskLED H6CC driver is a buck driver. It will "buck down" the input voltage to the voltage that the load (the 3 series LEDs) requires. The 24V spec simply means that the max input voltage that the driver can accept safely without frying. It is not the output voltage that it sends to the load.

What you need to know if you go with a buck driver like the H6CC or the der Wichtel driver is the voltage overhead to reach regulation.

Three XM-Ls in series at 3A is about 3*3.35V = 10.05V. Your Vbatt may start at 3*4.2V = 12.6V, but quickly sag to a quasi steady state of 3*3.7V = 11.1V. At the end of the run time, your Vbatt could be around 3*3V, which is less than Vload. Thus, you won't be in regulation at the very end.

But when will the driver fall out of regulation? At best, when Vbatt falls below 10.05V (at least according to spec -- in reality, each LED has its own Vf curve, plus Vf decreases as the LED warms up). But buck drivers have a finite voltage overhead on top of Vbatt=Vload to reach regulation. If that overhead is 0.5V (which is doing good), then you need to feed the driver at least 10.5V to stay in regulation. That means Vcell = 3.5V under load. Clearly, your cells will have some capacity remaining when the driver falls out of regulation. The greater the overhead, the sooner this will occur.

You want to pick the driver with the smallest overhead (all else being equal, which is rarely the case).

Note that even out of full regulation, you should still get plenty of good light for a while. But it just won't be regulated.

Based on the analysis below, I think I would skip the 7135 approach of Download and go with a buck driver like the TaskLED or der Wichtel version.

I think I know why ma_sha encountered overheating with his build and needed to use a voltage dropping resistor.

XM-Ls have a particularly low Vf. This is a known issue with 7135-based drivers. You have to match the LED Vf fairly carefully to the Vbatt. Assuming ma_sha's XM-L Vf was the datasheet value of about 3.3V at 2.8A, then the input voltage to the driver could be quite high initially -- say 12.6V - 6.6V = 6.0V. I'm not familiar with the IMR22430 cells he used, but IMRs in general hold their voltage under load quite well. So for several minutes, the 7135 driver is probably seeing close to 6V input. Eventually, the cells will sag down to the book value of 3.7V each, or 11.1V total, and the driver might see 11.1V - 6.6V = 4.5V.

The 7135 driver efficiency is essentially Vload/Vin. So at the beginning and for most likely several minutes afterward, ma_sha's build was seeing a driver efficiency of only about 3.3V/6V = 55%. That means a lot of heat is being dissipated by the driver. Total LED power is around 9.9V * 2.8A ~28W. To generate that power, the driver draws 28W/0.55 = 51W, and thus generates about 23W of waste heat. No wonder the driver got really hot really fast.

Your 3x17670 cells should sag to the quasi steady state value of 11.1V under load fairly quickly, so hopefully you don't need a dropping resistor and won't have any driver overheating issues.

Driver efficiency at that point could be around 3.3/4.5 ~73%, which isn't that great. Waste heat from the driver could be around 10W, which is a lot. Looking at this estimated waste heat figure, you will still need a dropping resistor to keep things cool. Or you'll have to figure out a heat sinking solution for the driver.

Even with the H6CC or der Wichtel driver, I'd advise heat sinking the driver. At 90% efficiency, you are still generating about 3W of waste heat.
 
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Aepoc

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Thanks Justin, that was a lot of very helpful, valuable information! If it would drop out of regulation fairly quickly then why would you choose the H6CC, or any buck only driver for that matter? Do you know of any Buck/Boost drivers that would feed the leds 3A? I have one of goldserve's Piglets which worked great for a single SS P4, but that only puts out 850mA... about 2A less than what I'm looking for.
 

ma_sha1

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XM-Ls have a particularly low Vf. This is a known issue with 7135-based drivers. You have to match the LED Vf fairly carefully to the Vbatt. Assuming ma_sha's XM-L Vf was the datasheet value of about 3.3V at 2.8A, then the input voltage to the driver could be quite high initially -- say 12.6V - 6.6V = 6.0V. I'm not familiar with the IMR22430 cells he used, but IMRs in general hold their voltage under load quite well. So for several minutes, the 7135 driver is probably seeing close to 6V input. Eventually, the cells will sag down to the book value of 3.7V each, or 11.1V total, and the driver might see 11.1V - 6.6V = 4.5V.

The 7135 driver efficiency is essentially Vload/Vin. So at the beginning and for most likely several minutes afterward, ma_sha's build was seeing a driver efficiency of only about 3.3V/6V = 55%. That means a lot of heat is being dissipated by the driver. Total driver power is around 9.9V * 2.8A ~28W, and 45% of that is heat, or about 12.5W. No wonder the driver got really hot really fast.

I actually measured the Volts under load. Across the 2 led is 6.7V, 3 IMR 22430 in the flashlight under load is 11.6V, so the driver is seeing 4.9V, not 6V, but still lots of heat to burn. The resistor dropped another volt, so the driver sees 3.9V in my set-up.

With 3x17670 Li-ion, the internal resistance is higher, I'd imagine 1 V less than the IMR, i.e 10.6V or so under load, so the driver will see 3.9V w/o resistor. It might not need a drop resistor but heat sinking is still advised.

7135 can not handle 6v, not even 5v under load. 6V only ok with 2xCR123 which is probably around 4.5V under load at most.
 
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Justin Case

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Yeah, I was lazy in checking something like the AW17670 voltage under a 3A load.

See here or here, for example. Looks like the cells will sag to below 3.5V fairly quickly. So your 3.9V estimate looks good. If we use the datasheet estimated value of 6.6V for the Vf of the two "load" LEDs and assume 10.6V for Vbatt, then the voltage to the driver is 4V. The 7135 driver efficiency then is around 3.3V/4V ~82%. Getting better, but at 28W driver power, that's still a lot of waste heat (6W). But it looks like this 6W waste heat situation might hold for less than 2 minutes when using 3x17670, based on the discharge graph in the second link. ma_sha's real-world experience shows that dropping the voltage to the driver down to 3.9V is no problem in terms of driver thermal management (a little surprising since the estimated waste heat is about 6W -- perhaps even with the IMRs, the cells sag even more in voltage fairly fast), which would be the equivalent situation as using 3x17670 without a resistor.

And as the cells sag further in voltage, efficiency goes up further. Again from the second link, it looks like Vcell can be 3.3V-3.4V for much of the run time. Thus, efficiency could be 3.3V/(10.2V - 6.6V) = 3.3/3.6 = 92% to 3.3V/(9.9V-6.6V) = 100% (the latter ignores the ~0.1V voltage overhead for the 7135).

Looking at the discharge graphs for the AW17670, the cells fall below 3.5V very rapidly under a 3A load. I doubt 3x17670 can keep an H6CC or a der Wichtel buck driver in regulation for more than a few minutes at most.

I take back what I wrote above. It looks like the Download 7135 approach is the one that will work the best. If you want to use a buck driver, looks like you need to go to 4x17670.

The 7135 driver will still fall out of regulation before the cells are fully drained. From the discharge curves, this could occur with about 50% of the cell capacity remaining, or a run time in regulation of about 10-15 min. But you'll still get a graceful decrease in output, giving you useful function and plenty of warning to change out your cells.
 
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Aepoc

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Wow, with this advice and the price tag ($4.70) I don't understand why I'm trying to find anything else... I just pulled the trigger. I'm still interested in a fully regulated driver for this build, so if anybody has any recommendations they would be much appreciated.

Thank you Ma Sha and Justin for your valuable input!

Oh and what can I expect for total shipping time from kaidomain... 2 weeks+?


Edit: Looks like this build might need an upgrade before it's even complete: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?312393-New-XM-L-driver-on-DX-anyone-getting-one
 
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onetrickpony

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Hey, that post you just made should be a sticky, somehow somewhere. Incredibly astute and easy to understand for those of us who are still learning (trying to, anyway). Thank you very much!

Edit: I'm speaking to Justin Case, just in case anyone was wondering....
 

Aepoc

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I agree OTP, Justin and MaSha both had some very valuable information to offer which I was having difficulty finding elsewhere! :twothumbs
 
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