Build a Mag85 or buy a manufactured light?

I'm a complete flashlight newbie. I did my reasearch and bought a Fenix PD31. I really like it. Then I started looking to further the collection with a lot of power. I saw the Mag85 information along with a few beamshots. I thought this was the coolest thing so I wanted to build one.

As I adding up costs, I started to wonder why I should build one of these rather than buy an available off the shelf light from one of the big manufacturers.

MAG85

COST
Maglite 3D $18.00
Fivemega 9AA>3D adapter $39.00
Glass lens $7.50
WA1185 bipin bulb (2) $11.00
Fivemega reflector $22.00
Fivemega bipin adapter $18.00
Misc. Shipping $10.00
Total $125.50

OUTPUT
From reading a lot of posts, the output of a Mag85 is believed to be right around 800 real lumens. I haven't seen any definitive data on output though.

RUNTIME
Sounds like its right around 30 minutes and get's very hot during long run times. Doesn't sound too desirable.

Yes, there are some cheaper sources, but if I do this, I want top notch components and Fivemega seems like the way to go. All of his parts look very professional and well constructed.

COMPETITOR
The dilemma, as I see it, is that I can purchase a better light for the same amount of money. A purchased light would have more engineering effort put into perfecting it and making it work really well for its intended purpose. An example would be the (soon to be released) Fenix TK41.

http://www.fenixlight.com/viewnproduct.asp?id=89

COST
$129.95 plus shipping

OUTPUT
800 lumens on high

RUNTIME
130 minutes on high

I know Olight and some other companies have similar offerings in the same price range. That's only one example but why is it that so many people seem to be building Mag85's when something high quality, with similar or same output, and a much longer run time is available? Is it the thrill of building your own creation? That definitely would be fun, but at the same cost, I think I prefer to buy a "better" off the shelf light.

Your thoughts?

The reason people build Mag85s is because the beam characteristics, color temperature, and color rendering differences between LEDs and incandescent lamps can be quite large.

The Mag85 will:

* Throw better, due to the filament of the WA 1185 bulb having a much smaller surface area, and higher surface brightness, than an LED. The smaller the surface area that emits light is, the better/easier it is to focus it in a reflector.
* Have a pleasingly white beam, and a color temperature around 3200-3400K. This is whiter than your average household bulb (>3000K), yet not exactly CFL white.
* Avoid LED tint weirdness (blue, green, purple, pink tones)
* Have a color rendering index number (CRI) of 100. This is, however, deceiving, as it emits more yellow and red light than it does blues, greens, etc. Still, most people prefer the way things look under a bright, white incandescent lamp to an LED.
* Emit infrared radiation (heat). Useful if you use an infrared filter, you need a hand warmer, or melt a frozen car door lock or something.

Cons:

* No regulation. The light will continually dim and go yellow as the battery depletes.
* Short battery life as you mentioned, and heat.

In short, there's a lot more to a flashlight than 'MOAR BRITE' that makes it desirable, useful or best for the task at hand. Personal preferences, and its area of use, plays into it a lot.

This really tracks a bit astray from your question, but I wouldn't build a Mag85 that way...

mckeand13 said:

MAG85

COST
Maglite 3D $18.00
Fivemega 9AA>3D adapter $39.00
Glass lens $7.50
WA1185 bipin bulb (2) $11.00
Fivemega reflector $22.00
Fivemega bipin adapter $18.00
12 Eneloops $15.00
Misc. Shipping $10.00
Total $140.50

Click to expand...

If you use NiMH, yes. I added the batteries for you... They may be cheaper by the dozen, but they ain't free.
Eneloops are about $5 a 4-cell pack, you need 3 packs to get 9 cells (plus 3 spares), so $15.

If you use safe chemistry Li-ions, it's more like:
Just saved $40 bucks by leaving out the holder.
AW IMR26500s are $16 a piece, you need 3, so you're spending a bit more there, but you're still $6 ahead. More to the point, it's shorter, lighter, plus it runs 10% longer and/or brighter because there's more energy (2300mAh vs. 2000mAh). Or keep the 3D, spend the same money on 3 IMR26650s, and you get 4000mAh -- double the energy storage of your plan, in the same volume.


But as I said, all that's off the main point -- even doubling the runtime doesn't make things look equal. It's because you're not just comparing build vs. buy, you're comparing incan vs. LED, and yeah, LED comes out a winner by lumens and runtimes anywhere below ~1klm. But you can build your own LEDs as certainly as you can hotwires (hey, my first mod was a 4D Mag P7 -- 3 hours runtime, ~650 lm OTF, and less than $100 total), and they'll have the same strengths and weaknesses as bought LEDs. And you can buy incans (say, a Solarforce L1200), and see the same strengths and weaknesses as a Mag85.

As to why we build (or buy) incans when there are LEDs out there...

• Some people prefer the warmer tints. While warm-white LEDs exist, few lights are available with them from the factory, and they're relatively difficult to obtain for modding/building. It's purely a matter of preference, I actually prefer >5000K, all else equal.
• Hard-driven incans have better color rendition due to a more uniform spectrum -- this is a solid fact, but of course to what extent it matters (vs. e.g. runtime) is preference. (Weakly driven incans, while inheriting a CRI of ~100 from the definition of CRI, do have poor color rendering over a broad swath of spectrum.)
• Incans can be an order of magnitude brighter in a given light size. This is because LEDs need cooling, which requires extra space and extra materials -- incan bulbs don't want cooled, since they work by getting hot and glowing. This means you can stick truly ridiculous bulbs (~400W) in a maglite body and enjoy it for 3 minutes, but an LED (or LEDs) generating the same light would burn themselves to a crisp.
• The best incans used to be able to throw farther than the best LEDs, all else (reflector/lens diameter and quality) being equal. This is no longer strictly true, but it's still quite difficult to beat them.

As to why we mod instead of buying...

• Maybe there's no light for sale that does quite what we want.
• Maybe we want the adventure of doing it.
• Maybe we want the bragging rights of saying "Yeah, I modded it. It's 25x as bright as stock."

As for why we mod Mags, LED or incan... (yeah, I'm getting off topic, but I'm on a roll, you can't stop me now :nana

• They're built quite solidly.
• They're big enough to get down in them and do stuff without ridiculous fine-motor skills.
• They're not glued together or potted, and come apart entirely by hand and with standard tools.
• They're cheap.
• They're popular enough (because of being cheap) to have an established aftermarket of standard modding parts.
  And most importantly...
• They can look practically stock, like a light everybody's brother has in his truck... until you hit the switch!

A lot of stock lights leave you more-or-less stuck with how they came, unless you're already a proficient flashlight mechanic. If you're lucky, you'll have lots of off-the-shelf components to swap out (Surefire E-series and C-series, 4sevens Quark series come to mind), but Mags are far and away the easiest to mod. Building a Mag85, a Mag61, a MagP7, or some such is a great way to get started.

Oh, and a quick LED Mag recipe, to illustrate the point:
Yes, it's direct-drive, not regulated -- you can fix that for a few $ more, though I probably would at least try DD first, then add a regulator if it was drawing excessive current. This probably beats the TK41 for both output and runtime, though the exact tradeoff there depends on the parameters of your particular LED. (If it's unexpectedly low Vf, it'll hog current, and be brighter, but shorter runtime. Unexpectedly high Vf, vice versa. Either way, almost twice the energy as the TK41's 8 AAs.)

Led and incandescent are completely different lights. I have both. I've built several incans and bought/modified quite a few LED lights. Led has runtime, hotwires have the color rendition. They both have their place. Like they say: Buy both!

IMR 26500's will most likely poof the bulb.

I have a lot of high powered LED lights but prefer my Incans over them even if they are less bright. I like the color of the Incans over the LED's. My favorite Incan lights are two 1185's. One is a tri-bored Mac Mini-Hotwire. The other is a tri-bored host that uses potted 1185's instead of using a bi-pin holder and has less chance of flashing the bulb because of the added resistance.

If you are looking for a cheap 600-800 lumens, get a mass produced high powered LED light. It will have longer run times, no chance of flashing the bulb, be cheaper and will most likely run on one to two cells.

QtrHorse said:

IMR 26500's will most likely poof the bulb.

Click to expand...

You may well be right; I haven't kept track of things pertaining to boring little lights like the Mag85, but I thought IMR26500s would be fine if you didn't do any resistance fixes and used a PR-bipin adapter (instead of a Kiu tower or similar). I know the 1185 handles three Emoli 26700s just fine, as I ran this for a couple months, no flashes. (But I found the Mag85 distinctly underwhelming, and went back to EDCing a 2C Mag61 and put the Emolis in a 6D/64440IRC build that I'm still happily running on occasion -- >4klm and >20 minutes runtime ain't half bad.)

Then again, I had much better luck than I hear from others in terms of flashing bulbs in my '61 on 25500 cells... maybe bulbs just like me better than you guys. :nana:

Worst-case, the $6 saved will get you an NTC inrush limiter -- I'm quite certain it'll be fine with a soft-start.

Hi, here is MHO, but it is close to what is stated above.

There are a LOT of very nice commercial lights on the market. It is hard to beat a new, commercially produced light for results and price.

That being said, I tend to buy used commercially produced lights, because so many people here have to own the latest version, so I can get them much cheaper if dinged a bit, which is fine for me.

I also will occasionally buy a used custom light from someone on the forum, especially if I can get a couple of them for gifts.

I also build some lights - for a hobby. Trust me - there is no economical incentive to home build a light. It is for fun and very educational, but economics - forget it. No matter what numbers you put into your budget, just multiply times 3X for a home built light project.

Two lights I tend to keep no matter what are both 1185's....one in an M6, and one in a tri bored Mag. They both use the aw soft start, and to me that makes the light so much better. Yes they get warm at an hour of runtime, but so do most high output lights.

You will enjoy a light you built at least 5 times more than one you buy

I actually found these forums looking for a project to do with my old 3D Maglite. Amazon has the Fenix TK41 for just over a hundred bucks now - its Prime too, so will ship for free is you have a Prime membership. Besides the color of the light, it does seem a bit hard to justify building the Mag85 now. While I'd love to build something myself, I don't want to invest more than a commercial equivalent just to say I did it.

In any case, I'm new here so going to poke around some more to see if I missed something.