cold/neutral/warm/tint/high CRI questions

gcbryan

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This question is for those of you who are more knowledgeable and more into tint and CRI ratings than I am.

Many people are looking for a light with a neutral tint (or warm) rather than cold white. If a light came out in cold white but had a high CRI rating would this still not be what you prefer?

I understand not wanting a bluish light but if a white light had high CRI and you used it outside wouldn't the trees/leaves/grass look natural due to the high CRI?

I guess I'm asking if the tint is just a filter based way of approximating what high CRI does naturally.

As LED manufacturing technology matures and doesn't require binning anymore (if that will ever happen I don't know) what would the ideal emitter be? Would it be neutral with a high CRI or would cold white with high CRI be even more efficient?
 

Napalm

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I recommend this article first:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_temperature

As for your last question, they will still bin them by color temperature, but all of them will have high CRI so you won't have "green" or "purple" tints. They will just look "warmer" or "cooler" depending on bin but all of them will look "white" not colored.

Nap.
 

JA(me)S

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...what would the ideal emitter be? Would it be neutral with a high CRI or would cold white with high CRI be even more efficient?
There's two questions here:

  • I believe the cool white High CRI would be more efficient (higher Lms., not by much, if perceptible)
  • Given 2 tints of equal CRI, my eyes would still prefer the neutral.
After an hour of cool tint use, my eyes say "ahh, thank you" when I switch to neutral. Conversely, after an hour of neutral tint use, my eyes say "ouch - hope this doesn't take long" when I switch to cool. This, of course, is a personal preference; but given tints of equal high CRI, the debate over cool vs. neutral preference will likely continue...

How's that for a long-winded non-answer?

- Jas.
 

carrot

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I do enjoy a hi-CRI light and I do enjoy warm tints but it is not a deal-killer for me. I have and will continue to buy cool white lights and have and will continue to buy warm tints. If I were getting high CRI I would probably also go for the warm just to get the whole enchilada (be closer to incan) but if tint choice is not an option I'm not too concerned about it either.

High CRI only indicates that the LED is more "full spectrum" than your typical LED. The color temperature or tint indicates what color bias the LED has, whether it be more bluish (ex. 6000k) or more red/yellowish (ex. 3000k). I would imagine purists and especially outdoors-oriented folk would prefer warm white for their high CRI because it more closely approximates incandescent/tungsten filament which is a black body radiator like the sun, whereas cool white high CRI might appeal more to those used to older cool white LEDs but who still want higher color rendition, like electricians.
 

B0wz3r

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To my knowledge, strictly speaking, there is no relationship between 'neutral' tint and CRI.

However, there are specific relationships in the retinae in terms of the percentages of the different types of cone receptors we have, and the contributions they make to our subjective experience of color.

About 60% of all cones are 'red', or long wavelength receptors; about 30% are 'green' or medium wavelength receptors, and the remaining 10% are 'blue' or short wavelength receptors.

When we perceive a color that is not chromatically pure, that is to say there are multiple different wavelengths in the light, all of our receptors are activated, but to different levels. When we see 'red' under a white light, it's because that object is absorbing more of all other wavelengths than the red ones, so the relationship of the different wavelengths in the light is that the majority is in the 'red' range. There will still be some blue, green, etc., but we see 'red' because that is the dominant wavelength. The same is true for the other two primary colors.

Further, the brain encodes brightness, which is the subjective perceptual correlate of intensity, through the number of action potentials sent by the receptors to the visual cortex in the brain. The more photons there are in the light, the more action potential produced, and the brighter the light we experience. Because we have more red than blue cones, two equally intense lights of those two colors will NOT look equally bright; we will see the red one as brighter than the blue one. This is because even though the amount of photons is the same, there are more red receptors sending signals to the brain.

For a light to be high CRI, it would have to have three wavelengths in it that correspond to the ones our three types of receptors are most sensitive to. Now a red cone will respond to green light, but far more weakly than to red light, or than a green cone to green light. So, to get high CRI, assuming equal amounts of wavelengths and intensities in the light, we would still see that light as being 'warmer' because of the preponderance of red cones in the retinae. I don't know that it would be possible to have a high CRI light that is predominantly blue, because the lack of response by the green and red receptors wouldn't be the same to that light as a light of a warm tint.

In sum, while there might not be a strict relationship between 'neutral' and CRI, as far as I understand the workings of the visual system, any high CRI light would have to be at least a pure white, or warmer tinted, and we would not see any blue tinted light as being 'high CRI'.
 

notsofast

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I am under the impression that high CRI is only possible with warmer tints. Can there be a CRI of 80+ in a cool tint? 70 isn't a high CRI.
 

pjandyho

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Thanks for sharing BOwz3r. I always enjoy reading what you write in regards to how our eyes see colors. I am learning from what you wrote. Thank you!
 

hoongern

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I am under the impression that high CRI is only possible with warmer tints. Can there be a CRI of 80+ in a cool tint? 70 isn't a high CRI.

The sun (5500-6000K) is a cool tint by most definitions, but 100CRI.

Honestly, I wonder why on earth there's so much debate on tints. It just boils down to personal opinion - try out various tints in the way you'd use the lights, and then pick the tint which suits you best, and the one which looks most 'neutral' to you (It's very different for different people!). If it's warm, take the warm. If it's neutral, take the neutral. If it's cool, take the cool. If you like them all (like me), take them all.

(Also, as an example, I asked a number of my friends who grew up with incandescent [warm] lighting, and they preferred the warmer tints, and didn't like cool tints. I asked my other friends who grew up with fluorescent cool lighting, and they preferred the cooler tints, and didn't like warm tints. Of course, there was some variation)
 

twl

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I think it's all based on individual preference.

I find it amazing to see very common complaints about a nice white beam that might have a barely noticeable blue or purple corona around it, but then see people go out of their way to buy a light where the entire beam is a sickly shade of yellow/brown, and love it because it's called "warm". It looks like somebody spilled honey over the lens.

If you like yellow/brown beams, fine.
But it's only a preference for a different type of beam color flaw.
I personally think that this whole "warm" thing is a fad that will fade out pretty soon.
 

pjandyho

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I personally think that this whole "warm" thing is a fad that will fade out pretty soon.

On the contrary, not only is it not fading away, there are more and more demands for warmer tints. I have never ever seen anyone who is into warmer tints give up warm tints in preference to cool white (with exception of those who are only trying out), but I have seen many who migrated into the warm tint category from cool white, or at least have both. Call it fad or honey over lens for all you want but the truth remains that warm tints are here to stay. So either you are right or the majority who have "seen the light" are right.
 

B0wz3r

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Thanks for sharing BOwz3r. I always enjoy reading what you write in regards to how our eyes see colors. I am learning from what you wrote. Thank you!

+1 Thanks!

My pleasure; flashaholism is a by-product of my study of perceptual psychology. I'm always happy to talk about this stuff. :D

The sun (5500-6000K) is a cool tint by most definitions, but 100CRI.

Honestly, I wonder why on earth there's so much debate on tints. It just boils down to personal opinion - try out various tints in the way you'd use the lights, and then pick the tint which suits you best, and the one which looks most 'neutral' to you (It's very different for different people!). If it's warm, take the warm. If it's neutral, take the neutral. If it's cool, take the cool. If you like them all (like me), take them all.

(Also, as an example, I asked a number of my friends who grew up with incandescent [warm] lighting, and they preferred the warmer tints, and didn't like cool tints. I asked my other friends who grew up with fluorescent cool lighting, and they preferred the cooler tints, and didn't like warm tints. Of course, there was some variation)

There is individual variation from person to person, but personal opinion is only a small part of the equation. The structural aspects of the visual system and its functional parameters are far more influential in determining what we see as 'high CRI'. That is not to say that some people won't prefer cool tints, or prefer warm tints, but for any light to be considered 'high CRI', it can't be strongly cool tinted or strongly warm tinted.

To my knowledge, sunlight is about 5,500 K in color temp. This does vary by atmospheric conditions though; mainly from suspended particulate matter that causes scattering and filtering of different wavelength components of sunlight. For example, when the sun is on the horizon, such as at sunrise or sunset, we see the light as 'warmer' because the shorter 'blue' wavelengths are filtered more than than when the sun is near or at zenith. This is because of the angle of inflection of the light through the atmosphere; at sunrise/sunset, the light has to travel through more of the atmosphere and so there is greater diffusion/scattering/filtering of the shorter wavelengths than when the sun is directly overhead. (Incidentally, this is why the sky appears blue to us; the shorter wavelengths are scattered and diffuse through the atmosphere, making the sky look blue.)

However, the fact that sunlight is about 5,500 K doesn't mean that's what we see best (and by implication, what many people would prefer). While it is true that what we know of as 'visible light' has been evolutionarily selected for because the sun puts out the majority of its energy in that narrow range of the electromagnetic spectrum, other environmental forces have had a stronger influence on the evolutionary selection of our visual characteristics. The reason we have more red cones than any other is because red is the color that most often associates with ripe fruit (and as we are primates who evolved from tree dwelling ancestors, we ate a lot of fruit), and also with warning signs from other animals and plants as well... For example, poison oak leaves turn a crimson red color when the plant is flowering, which is also when it has the highest concentration of urushiol, the oil that causes the violent skin reaction we have from contacting poison oak.

I will have to do some research to find out what the color temperature of the light would be that we would see best, based on its wavelength components, assuming equal intensities of wavelengths associating with the peak responses of the three types of cones.
 

tre

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B0wz3r, your posts are the most informative I've read about CRI and color temp on CPF. very interesting stuff. Thanks.
 

B0wz3r

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B0wz3r, your posts are the most informative I've read about CRI and color temp on CPF. very interesting stuff. Thanks.

Again, my pleasure. :)

Here are a couple of articles I found with a quick search that look like good treatments of the subject.

This one is very extensive, and has a section specifically how CRI is defined and measured. It also talks about the origin of and distinctions between 'warm' and 'cool' tints. While he doesn't specifically address the issue of what is 'neutral', it is clear to me from my reading of the relevant sections, that there is an in-between area that would technically be considered 'neutral'. Interestingly, green falls into this in-between area. Note also, that the only credit I can find on this article is that the author is "Bruce McEvoy", and there is nothing about his credentials. That said, it is an extensive treatment, and of the parts of the article that I am particularly knowledgeable about, they are correct as far as I know, so I am assuming the other things he discusses that I am less informed about are also valid.

http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/color12.html

Here is a nice little introductory article about color temperature; not very in depth, but covers all the essentials and is easy to understand.

http://www.colorbasics.com/ColorTemperature/

Note about the McEvoy article (first link); one of the things he mentions is the relationship of depth perception to color perception, and he discusses it at some length. The idea here is that many people tend to perceive 'cool' colors as more distant, and 'warm' colors as closer, so artists have used this to add to the illusion of depth in paintings, by contrasting cool and warm objects. However, he entirely misses an important point about color temperature differences and distance perception, which is related to my mention above about the scattering effect of light in the atmosphere.

Since objects that are farther away have their reflected light traveling through more of the atmosphere, there is a greater scattering effect and since we have to look straight through the atmosphere to see them, they tend to appear more blue (think, "purple mountains majesty"), and darker as well. But for closer objects, there is less scattering, so we tend to see them as warmer, because there is less scattering of the short wavelengths.

Now, this might seem to contradict what I said above about scattering at sunrise/sunset, but this is where the function of the visual system comes into play. Our perception of the color of light occurs through what is called additive color mixing. So if you take three monochromatic lights, one blue, one green, and one red, that are each tuned to the wavelengths that each of the three receptor types are most sensitive to, and then combine them, we will see a white light. This is in contrast to subtractive color mixing, which is where more pigments absorb more and more wavelengths from light, and reflect fewer and fewer wavelengths. So when you mix many different colors of paint, you eventually get black, because the paint is reflecting fewer and fewer different wavelengths.

Back to scattering and perception: Now when we see a given color under 'white' light, what happens is the light we are receiving has a differential wavelength composition, there are more of some wavelengths than others. So when we see a red object under white light, it is absorbing most all other wavelengths except for those that correspond to red. Our receptors respond accordingly; the red cones are strongly stimulated, and the green and blue cones less so, and the result is we see the color 'red'.

Now with respect to things being 'blue' at a distance, there is more scattering of the shorter, blue, wavelengths of light by the atmosphere, but what this does is saturate the atmosphere with that scattered blue light, which makes it the dominant wavelength in that light, so we see it as blue, not as red or green, etc. You can see this in the sunset/sunrise situation; at the horizon, there will be a thin layer of very dark atmosphere from the horizon up to where the sun is, at which point the intensity of the light is enough that the scattering effect of the blue is overcome and we can still see the warmer colors. Directly above this, there is usually a much lighter, warmer band of light extending across the horizon. As you look upward from the horizon, the colors we see will get progressively cooler because of the combination of the scattering/filtering effect of the blue, and the decreasing intensity of the light, which means their is less power in the warmer wavelengths, and so the scattering effect again overpowers the penetration of the longer wavelengths through the atmosphere.

In other words, what is happening, is that effect of subtractive color mixing is having more of an effect on the light than the additive mixing taking place in the light itself, so we see less of the warm colors and more of the blue colors for objects, such as mountains, at a distance.

Anyway, I'm sort of rambling at this point... much of what I've related here is stuff that I put in some of my lectures on color perception in the class on Sensory Perception that I teach. In fact, I will make a couple of PDF's of my slides and notes for those lectures, post them on my Photobucket account, and post the links to them here for you guys to read at your convenience.

I also have a ton of things to do today (don't we all?), so I won't be able to check back in again until later today at the earliest, maybe later tonight, not sure yet.

Regardless, I'm glad you guys are finding my posts on this topic informative and interesting; that's the payoff for us professor types... we're sort of attention junkies... we like it when people like when we're talking about the stuff that interests us personally... makes us feel all warm and fuzzy inside. :)

I'll post those lectures for you guys in a bit. And thanks for the positive feedback.

Oh, one more thing... UnknownVT here, (Vincent) has done some of the best reviews and posts on this issue of color perception and tint that I've seen here, so look up some of his posts. I haven't seen him post in quite a while, so I don't know if he's still active on the forum or not. (I'd love to see him and Selfbuilt do some collaborative flashlight reviews... that would be the best of both worlds, the technical and perceptual characteristics of a flashlight.)
 
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pjandyho

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You know BOwz3r, I am compiling what you wrote on my iPad for future reference, and it seems like a book is being formed. Interesting. Don't you wish I am one of your student? :)
 

B0wz3r

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You know BOwz3r, I am compiling what you wrote on my iPad for future reference, and it seems like a book is being formed. Interesting. Don't you wish I am one of your student? :)

:) Thanks. Good students are always an honor to have.

I just tried posting to Photobucket; unfortunately, they don't support PDF, and it would be a lot of work for me to convert into jpeg's the stuff I wanted to post links to.

If anyone has a sharing site that will support multipage PDF's, please let me know, and I will provide the PDF's to be posted.

Edit: here's a fun and quick little example of the role that neural processing in the visual system plays in our perceptions. Take a look at the following image:

http://i763.photobucket.com/albums/xx271/hdoofenshmirtz/lateralinhibition.jpg

Now look at the second border from the right, the border between the bands...

What you should see is that the border on the right side of the center band is a little bit darker than the center of that band, and that the border of the band on the other side is a little bit brighter than the rest of that band just to the right.

This perception is illusory... there is no change in the intensity of the light reflected across each of those bands. If you were to print the image out and test it with a lightmeter, it would show equal intensity all across each band. The perception of those narrow lighter and darker areas on each side of the borders (you should be able to see it for all the borders except the one on the far left) is produced by the information processing relationships between the different receptors in the retinae, and is called lateral inhibition. (See this image for a visual example of what I just said here: http://s763.photobucket.com/albums/xx271/hdoofenshmirtz/?action=view&current=Untitled.jpg)

What's happening here is that the change in brightness across the border causes the cells on the lighter side of the border are more strongly stimulated because of the greater intensity. In turn, they send inhibitory signals to the cells immediately on the darker side of the border, reducing their output, thereby reducing the perceived brightness in that spot.

I love doing this demo in my class, because it always blows people away. It demonstrates that what we perceive is not what is actually the case in the world, but how our brain and visual system interpret the stimuli they receive. Most often this process works very well and we see what is really the case. But in some cases limitations in the system will produce these kinds of illusory effects. In fact, all visual illusions are artifacts of the functional limitations of the visual system. We see them as illusions because the visual system (in fact all the sensory systems) work transparently to us, that is to say, we are not aware of their operation, we just see, or smell, or hear, etc. In fact, what we are really perceiving is not the world itself, but the functioning of our perceptual systems, which evolution has conveniently selected to not need any conscious thought. If it did, and we had to think about how to see or hear something, we'd be eaten long before we were able to make such decisions, and we'd be another footnote in the history of the evolution of life on earth. :)
 
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syncytial

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Bruce MacEvoy's (note spelling) website also has other interesting and relevant content. He is a familiar name due to his involvement with Yahoo! and has a PhD in perceptual psychology. His website and blog have lots of light and colour information, much of it in the context of watercolour painting, as well as astronomy and other interests.

His "color vision" section is daunting in it's scope, and informed commentary is invited! color vision


- Syncytial.
 
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B0wz3r

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Bruce MacEvoy's (note spelling) website also has other interesting and relevant content. He is a familiar name due to his involvement with Yahoo! and has a PhD in perceptual psychology. His website and blog have lots of light and colour information, much of it in the context of watercolour painting, as well as astronomy and other interests.

His "color vision" section is daunting in it's scope, and informed commentary is invited! color vision


- Syncytial.

Good to know; thanks for the info.
 

hoongern

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There is individual variation from person to person, but personal opinion is only a small part of the equation. The structural aspects of the visual system and its functional parameters are far more influential in determining what we see as 'high CRI'. That is not to say that some people won't prefer cool tints, or prefer warm tints, but for any light to be considered 'high CRI', it can't be strongly cool tinted or strongly warm tinted.

That is misleading - the definition of CRI is a black body radiator - so a 1000K, 5000K or 8000K light could still be 100 CRI. Of course, this doesn't mean that a blackbody radiator would be an ideal light source. It's just that the question was dealing with CRI, and scientifically, it would be good to note that CRI is completely independent of tint - it's just depends on how close the light source is to a black body radiator of the same CCT.

HOWEVER, If we are talking about sensory perception and what light looks best, I am all game for the argument that CRI isn't a measure of how good the light quality is. Indeed, I think CRI is a flawed measurement. Of course, there is a relationship with high CRI generally being 'better', but isn't the full answer.

It would be good, however, to clarify that CRI has nothing to do with sensory perception and how 'good' a light looks. CRI is merely a scientific measure.
 
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