Basic Electronics/Flashlight questions

Hi. I'm new and totally uneducated in this area, so bear with me. I'm interested in flashlights because part of my volunteer work relies on them. I'm in Wilderness Search and Rescue and we search at night... a lot. I can't seem to find the right light for my needs. I'm never happy with what I find in out local stores. So, a few questions, starting with these...

1. What makes a flashlight bright and light up the woods at night... the type of bulb (Incandescent vs. LED), the quantities of bulbs (1 LED vs. 6 LEDs), the type of battery (AAA vs AA vs C etc) or the number of batteries?

2. Would more batteries in use at one time make the light last longer? That is, would a light with 6 AA batteries last longer than one with 3 AAs if all else is the same?

THANKS for all the help!!

Rick

:welcome:
Hi Rick, the questions you've asked have been answered many times on CPF, try the Google search box toward the top of the page, this will limit your search to CPF.
Norm

Welcome to CPF RWS4184. A lot of the stuff in here can be technically "heavy", so I'll try to dumb it down a bit.

1) LED's are made by different companies, and they are usually referred to as emitters. You'll see their names on here referred to as a combination of their emitter and bin; Luxeon-V, XML-S, Rebel, Cree, Seoul, etc. Some manufacture only use one brand of LED's, some use multiple. Even some of the same Flashlight models use different emitters; i.e. the Surefire L4 used to use the Luxeon-V (which is now outdated), and the new L4 uses the Seoul P4. How bright they are is essentially based on a combo of wattage/amps/voltage. You can get a brighter light out of 6 volts, but the manufacturers don't always make them like that. Brightness always goes hand in hand with runtime. They can make lights brighter, but you're always losing in the trade-off, so you want to find a good combo of both that works for you. All your alkaline cells have the same voltage essentially (1.5 volts). The only thing that changes with the lettering of the cell is capacity (known as mAh or Milli Amp Hours...so a C cell has the same voltage as a AA cell, but it will power a light at the same brightness, but for longer. Example would be a 2C and a 2D maglite...they will both be approximately the same brightness, but the one with D cells will run longer.

2) This depends on how the cells are stacked...parrallel or serial. 6AA's ran serial ("in-line") with, say a 1200mAh rating, would give you: 1.5 volts/cell (times) 6 = 9 Volts, and your capacity stays the same. When ran in parallel (say 3-AA's and 3-AA's ran next to each other =4.5 volts, but you add the capacity together, giving you less power but more runtime.

Hope this helps...and using this info, you can dfo some searches on "serial battery"/"parallel battery"/"mAh" too get a better understanding of how that all works.

Again, welcome!

Norm, I figured they had, but the Search wasn't working. I've had some other issues since I posted, and rebooting fixed them... the search may work for me now. I hope it's not time to buy a new PC just yet.

Thanks!!

RWS4184 said:

1. What makes a flashlight bright and light up the woods at night... the type of bulb (Incandescent vs. LED), the quantities of bulbs (1 LED vs. 6 LEDs), the type of battery (AAA vs AA vs C etc) or the number of batteries?

Click to expand...

The type of bulb and the amount of power feed to the bulb. At the current time one of the best bulb's is the Cree XM-L led, you will see many manufactures includes that name in the description of a light. The number of leds will also affect the brightness, but a old style 100 led flashlight can not match a single XM-L led flashlight.

The most common battery size is AA batteries and preferable NiMH, because they can deliverer most power (Alkaline is not very good in high power lights). The smaller AAA battery is fine for small lights, but does not have enough power for a large light.

Around here we also uses some special size battery like CR123 and 18650, they have more power than AA batteries, but there are some handling restriction on them or you risk a

RWS4184 said:

2. Would more batteries in use at one time make the light last longer? That is, would a light with 6 AA batteries last longer than one with 3 AAs if all else is the same?

Click to expand...

More batteries of the same size will always make a light last longer, if everything else is the same, but usual it is not. I.e. lights with with more batteries are usual brighter and that requires more power, this negates the extra runtime you would get with more batteries.
Using a multi level light you could select a lower level to get the longer runtime.

Thanks Angelofwar... that gets me started!

Rick

RWS4184,
There are others here far more knowledgeable than I, but the fact that you do nighttime searching outdoors caught my eye. LEDs are more energy-efficient than incandescent bulbs, but tend to have a subtle-to-strong bluish tint, which can affect your ability to pick up on color-contrast in the great outdoors. There are 'HCRI' ('high color-rendition-index') leds which can increase your ability to see different colors outdoors. IlluminationSupply.com is currently doing a run of HCRI Malkoff led drop-in modules, which fit in the heads of the 'classic' P/C/G/Z series (the newer SF models are, alas, coming out with 'sealed' heads). Many of the classic Surefire models are currently being discontinued, and it's a good time to search on the web to find good deals. MidwayUSA is discounting their SF 'C3' model (a 3-cell light) for one of the best prices around. If you get the 'M60 HCRIL' (low - still ~125 lumens), you don't need the heat-dissipating qualities of a metal light. I'm seeing the SF 'G2' (2-cell light) nitrolon model on the web for as low as $30, and if you get the yellow version, it would be easier to spot if you drop it. Even though it's plastic, it's very strong, still the same stellar warranty, and in cold weather it will be easier on your hands. The combination of a SF 'host' and Malkoff 'drop-in' is about as good as it gets, in terms of quality, reliability, and durability. A G2 & Malkoff M60HCRIL will cost around $100, and will quite likely last you the rest of your life. The advantage of the C3 is that it will take a 'hotter-burning' led module, and will hold 3 batteries, for 50% more runtime. It should take a very, very long drop, to get a Surefire/Malkoff combination to stop working. I don't know how far you need your light to throw a beam.

I know almost nothing about headlamps, but Zebralight is supposed to be coming out with an HCRI version, if they haven't already.
I also have never done search and rescue work, so I don't claim to know what your lighting requirements are.

I am not trying to tell you to buy the suggestions above. Perhaps there is something else that would fit your needs better. But you will not find better quality, or a more rugged and warranteed combination, than the Surefire and Malkoff suggestions. Both of them have among the best warranties, and customer service on the planet. I do recommend either an 'HCRI', or, at the very least, a 'warm' led unit.

:welcome:

First of all, forget anything you've seen in the stores. That's certainly not for people who do R&R. You should have a look at some of the great beamshots on here and you should understand why I say that.

I strongly recommend you do your research and follow your learning curve before starting to buy light after light. It is common knowledge here that, once you're a CPF member, you'll buy more than just 1 or 12 lights (not a typo). If you start with the right one, you'll save a lot of money.

The numbers that might interest you most are the ones giving you the light output (how bright it is, generally expressed in Lumens), throw (how far it lights up) and then runtime, batteries and possibly weight.

To answer your questions with different terms:

1- LED's are now as powerful if not more than bulbs (I'm pretty sure more), however you'll get better runtimes with LED flashlights. More batteries could mean more runtime, but more output (brighter) means your batteries will get drained faster. The biggest advantage of LED's is that you can have multiple output modes on your flashlight and run it for an incredible number of hours if you don't run it on high all the time. The brightest flashlights mostly, but not exclusively, run lithium batteries, like CR123 and 18650. Also be aware that some of the most powerful lights will only run for a few minutes at maximum output before lowering to a lesser output; it's a safety measure because the lights do get hot.

More LED's is not always brighter, and if it is brighter it does not usually 'throw' more but light a wider area at once (called flood). A good throwing light will have a large and deep reflector (and a smaller but powerful LED... there is a whole thread on throw lying around somewhere...)

2- In general, the more batteries a flashlight has, the more output it was intended to have. As a rule of thumb, most LED flashlights last between 1 and 2 hours on high, period. This seems to be an unwritten rules among manufacturers.


If you ever decide you should ask others for a recommendation, start with the flashlight recommendation checklist (it's a sticky in the general flashlights forum) and be aware that everyone will push for something they have and are satisfied with. It's not selfishness, it's just human nature to want you to have the same satisfaction they have and also only logical to talk about things that are known.

I hope I didn't confuse you in any way... just take it one step at a time and let it sink in. There's a lot that can be learned about flashlights.

Cataract said:

:welcome:

First of all, forget anything you've seen in the stores. That's certainly not for people who do R&R.

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Hi Rick,

What Cataract wrote is full of wisdom. Follow that advice and forget about any Maglite or Brinkman. You need something else.

Everybody here will give you their advice so here's mine: the first thing before looking for a flashlight is to determine the type of battery you can use (Li-ion, NIMH' alkalines, etc...). Are you always far from a base camp ? Do you have access to electricity to recharge them ? Do you have to carry as less as possible ? Is the size of the light matters ?

When you'll know the type of battery you need, then your quest for the perfect flashlight will truly begin... good luck and be aware that the flashlight world can turn as an addiction.

What is your budgetary expectations?
A full system for under $100, $250.
That will determine where you will shop.

RWS4184 said:

1. What makes a flashlight bright and light up the woods at night... the type of bulb (Incandescent vs. LED), the quantities of bulbs (1 LED vs. 6 LEDs), the type of battery (AAA vs AA vs C etc) or the number of batteries?

Click to expand...

there are 2 ways to measure brightness, total brightness and brightness in the forward direction.
Total brightness is like a household bulb throwing light in all directions at least half is wasted going behind you.
Brightness in one direction is like a laser pointer. All the light goes in one direction very far but the beam is so narrow it is useless except as a pointer.
So you will need to decide if you need a wider beam or you need a beam that throws far.
Take a look at the pictures here:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...2-shipped...&p=3676360&viewfull=1#post3676360
The top light has a floody beam. Notice how much brighter the flowerpot on the left side is lit.
The other 2 have a much more throwy beam. The center of the beam is much brighter and will reach out farther but you may have to keep swinging the torch from side to side to see everything.

RWS4184 said:

1. What makes a flashlight bright and light up the woods at night... the type of bulb (Incandescent vs. LED), the quantities of bulbs (1 LED vs. 6 LEDs), the type of battery (AAA vs AA vs C etc) or the number of batteries?

Click to expand...

The incan bulbs that come with 2D plastic lights are not that bright. The incan bulbs that come with 15 million candlepower spotlights are brighter than the bulk of LED flashlights. LED flashlights range from 2 lumen to 1500 lumen for most production torches. So for LED vs incan it depends on the exact torches compared.

RWS4184 said:

1. What makes a flashlight bright and light up the woods at night... the type of bulb (Incandescent vs. LED), the quantities of bulbs (1 LED vs. 6 LEDs), the type of battery (AAA vs AA vs C etc) or the number of batteries?

Click to expand...

LEDs vary fro 3 lumens to 900 lumens (to 2300 for the SST-90) driven to the max. Usually multiple LED bulbs mean use of crappy out of date dim LEDs. A 9 LED 3AAA torch available cheaply everywhere is estimated to top out at 27 lumens. A 1AA Zebralight or Xeno E03 XML with a single LED can produce 200 lumens on high. But the tiny reflectors of the 1AA lights also mean they tend to be floody.

RWS4184 said:

1. What makes a flashlight bright and light up the woods at night... the type of bulb (Incandescent vs. LED), the quantities of bulbs (1 LED vs. 6 LEDs), the type of battery (AAA vs AA vs C etc) or the number of batteries?

Click to expand...

LEDs need ~3.6V to operate properly
So 1AA and 2AA (and the 2D MagLED) have to use a boost circuit to produce the voltage needed. Boost circuits tend not to drive the LED to the maximum so these lights are often dimmer than 3 cell and 4 cell with the same LED.
CR123A are 3V and is 2/3 the length of an AA. Same voltage and 1/3 the length of 2AA. So they were quite popular for a while when there is need for a bright pocket light.
You will find many people here use lithium batteries such as PCR123A & 18650 here. That is because a 18650 runs from 4.2 to 3.6V and can power up an LED all on its own. But you will have to learn safe lithium handling before using them.
1AA usually 90 lumen max though some goes as high as 200.
2AA & CR123A usually 150 lumen max.
RCR123A usually 200 lumen max.
18650 350-700 lumen max.
2*19650 or 26650 2000 lumen max.

RWS4184 said:

2. Would more batteries in use at one time make the light last longer? That is, would a light with 6 AA batteries last longer than one with 3 AAs if all else is the same?

Click to expand...

More batteries are used to provide more power. Bigger batteries produce more runtime.
LEDs need ~3.6V to operate properly.
So 1AA and 2AA (and the 2D MagLED) have to use a boost circuit to produce the voltage needed. The boost circuits use up a lot of energy shortening battery life.
The 3D MagLED does not need a boost circuit and its runtime is more than 3/2 the 2D MagLED.
More batteries produce more voltage than an LED can handle. Some Dorcy 4AA LED use a dropping resister which wastes the extra voltage as heat. Dorcy uses 4AA because 3AA alkaline goes from 4.5V to 2.7V and with the LEDs needing ~3.6V the torch goes dim when the batteries are still half full. 4AA goes from 6V to 3.6V so is a much better fit.
More batteries than 4 does not help.

EDIT
The size of reflector determines how well the torch focus.
Both these torches is 180 lumens. The Quark MiNi AA2 on the left is actually a little brighter when doing a ceiling bounce.

But point them at something. Notice the difference the bigger reflector makes?

An example for a floody light get the Quark AA² Tactical, For more concentrated beam the Quark AA² Turbo with its bigger reflector.

Cataract said:

:welcome:

First of all, forget anything you've seen in the stores. That's certainly not for people who do R&R. .

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+ 83 Duotrigintillion!