When will LM damage Your Eyes

Grizzlyb

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Has there been a good investigation about when a Light can bring damage to Your Eyes?
So, how long, at what Lumens and from what distance would a light bring damage to Your eyes?

Would be important to know in my line of work (LEO)
 

DM51

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In normal use, it's extremely unlikely that any flashlight, even a very bright one, could ever cause permanent damage to a human eye. The natural and instinctive human reflex is to blink, squint, look away or close the eyes. Unless the person's eye is being forcibly held open, or they deliberately continue to stare into the light, no permanent damage will be caused.
 

Foxfyre

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DM51 is dead on (as always). :twothumbs You both inspired me to search eye damage on cpf and find a pretty good thread discussing the subject under general flashlight discussion.

Lasers are another story and I can see them being a real concern for a LEO; serious chance of eye damage there. CPF has info on safety in the area for lasers. With small powerful pocket ones becoming so prevalent you might want to read up on them.

And thanks Grizzlyb for helping to keep us safe.
 

EnduringEagle

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Foxfyre said:
DM51 is dead on (as always). :twothumbs You both inspired me to search eye damage on cpf and find a pretty good thread discussing the subject under general flashlight discussion.

Lasers are another story and I can see them being a real concern for a LEO; serious chance of eye damage there. CPF has info on safety in the area for lasers. With small powerful pocket ones becoming so prevalent you might want to read up on them.

And thanks Grizzlyb for helping to keep us safe.

Do you have a specific link you liked?
 

Foxfyre

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The first one that came up in my search. I didn't stop there, but continued to read several others fron the same search including some on blue wavelength effects and uv effects.

I studied up on lasers when my inlaws bought me a green one. It's facinating but the thing scares the jeebies out of me because it's so powerful. No joke about it; you really have to think about where you are pointing it.

As for flashlights it's still nice to err on the side of caution in my opinion. No reason to take unnecessary risks. After all you only get two eyes and they won't grow back.
 

Grizzlyb

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Thanks Foxfire and DM51,
At our Police Academy we are (I am) searching for the best way to disorient hostile opponents, with the least amount of damage.
I have been doing research about this for the last 2 years.
I came about a German study, done by a University Hospital in Heidelberg, about the possibility of eye damage from looking into a laser, or High Power LED lights.
Laser can/will damage Your eyes
So far it looks like DM51 is indeed right about the tactical lights we use at the moment, but we want to be absolutely sure. (the lumens are going up each year, where will it stop?)
 

StarHalo

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When you drive at night, you frequently look directly into car headlights which can approach 1000 lumens, and parking lot/security lighting which is usually over 10,000 lumens.
 

Erzengel

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It can be dangerous, if the subject is drugged and therefore doesn't react fast enough to the light. Don't think about doing a pupil reflex test with a tactical light. There were some incidents in Germany and therefore some states have forbidden the use of private purchased lights for pupil reflex tests.
 

Roger999

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It depends on the lux, not lumens. A 5mW laser is around 1lumen if I remember correctly.
 

AaronG

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+1 about the LUX. lumens is the measurement of total light output. LUX is the measurement of lighting intensity at a given point. The LUX is different depending how far away from the light source and how focused the light source is eg. Laser beam.
 

NoFair

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When you drive at night, you frequently look directly into car headlights which can approach 1000 lumens, and parking lot/security lighting which is usually over 10,000 lumens.

I think modern HID headlights are 3000+ each :D (at least mine are rated at that)
 

Erzengel

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Hello Grizzlyb,
I couldn't find the thread on messerforum (iirc) where I read about this problem. German police tests the pupil reflexes if they suspect that a person is drugged. If You use the light as a weapon, it can happen that people on drugs react in an unexpected way to the bright light or even strobe. Healthy persons look away or close their eyes to protect them. The eyes of people who smoked Marihuana react very slowly on light, therefore the "protection mechanisms" of their eyes are very unreliable. You should consult an eye specialist for more detailed information.
 

yellow

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while all that is correct, it has nothing to do with eye damage from a flashlight.
:rolleyes:
even a short glare into direct sunlight has no permanent effect, so what should a flashlight do harm?
One will have to do quite some seconds-to-mins of exposure and even a "drug test" on a stoned person does not last that long.
its bullshit - maybe for all these law-and-order persons who dont like some things others like (in our case flashlights) and want to have these things banned,
I can see no other reason

... lasers are a complete other story, but again I dont see the point here to ban them.
Catch - they always get catched - the dumbasses pointing on helis/planes and clap their butts, but leave me alone with my pointer and flashlight, I know when and what for to use them.


PS: forget about "disorienting" someone, without at least slightly hurting him/her.
 

GaAslamp

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while all that is correct, it has nothing to do with eye damage from a flashlight.
:rolleyes:
even a short glare into direct sunlight has no permanent effect, so what should a flashlight do harm?

That's a good point, as the Sun is pretty bright, and if it doesn't cause permanent eye damage with brief exposure, then a flashlight wouldn't. For reference, the Sun's noontime luminance (surface brightness for those who are less nitpicky ;)) is about 1.6 billion candela/m², which is more or less comparable to that of xenon arc lamps, I think, and many times brighter than anything commonly used in hand-held flashlights. As for the total amount of luminous flux entering the eye, the illuminance of noontime sunlight on a clear day is about 130,000 lux, and with a pupil diameter of say 2 mm, about half a lumen would actually make it into each eye. A particularly powerful xenon short-arc searchlight may be able to match this at short range and at its narrowest focus setting, but no LED-based flashlights currently.

I'm not sure what the threshold is for permanent damage to occur, but based on anecdotal evidence (due to accidents--nobody I know deliberately experiments with eye damage :duh2:) I bet that looking directly at the Sun through a typical binocular would do it. The luminance of the Sun's magnified image would be the same at the most, but its area would be about 50 times greater, meaning anywhere from 50 to about 8 times the luminous flux could enter the eye, depending on the diameter of the pupil (likely closer to the latter). That's right, 4 puny lumens may be enough to fry your retinas to a certain degree, but it's hard to get anywhere near that much through your pupils all at once--no hand-held flashlight is going to do that.

By the way, I know a guy who lost most of the sight in his right eye as a child by looking at the Sun through a small telescope. :shakehead Back in the "good old days" many department store telescopes came with cheap solar filters that screwed onto the eyepiece. Potentially questionable filtering aside, the problem with these was that sometimes so much heat built up in the filters, which absorbed most of the concentrated light from the Sun as they were designed to do, that the filters would shatter, instantly exposing the eye to a greatly magnified image of the Sun. :duck: Depending on the aperture of the telescope and the focal length and exit pupil of the eyepiece, we may be talking about hundreds of times more luminous flux than our eyes are able to withstand, which is...very bad.... I wouldn't worry too much about LED flashlights, though.
 

Grizzlyb

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On reading these comments, I think it is safe to say that with the 300Ansi lm tactical lights we use, we don't have to worry about permanent eye damage. (comment removed. You might do that but please do not post it in a family friendly forum)

Thanks for the advices.
And feel free to keep commenting if there is more knowledge.
 
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Mr Bigglow

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I'm recalling the old Leonard Cohen poem that goes
"You know who I am, you've looked at the sun...."

Yeah, we've all looked at the sun and I bet none of us are blind, or have a flashlight that is more than one millionth as bright.
 

degarb

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One main benifit to working with headlamps over fixed lighting, is less blind time from accidentally glancing at bulb at 8 foot away. If you want to get blinded use 500 watt halogen work lights (which do produce ir), a quarter of your work day will be blind.


I would assume a similar experience with flashlights at point blank eye flashing.
I would also assume the eye is pretty good at self healing, if you ever damaged cornia, a day and it self repairs.
 

Cataract

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[...]I would also assume the eye is pretty good at self healing, if you ever damaged cornia, a day and it self repairs.

Atually, the cornea does not reair itself, but fortunately, eye damage seems to only occur due to UV light. LED flashlights emit a bit of UV, but an insignificant fraction of what we receive from the sun, so it's safe to assume we're in no danger so far. Some HID bulbs on the other hand can emit a LOT of UV light, enough to cause skin burns, therefore possible irreversible eye damage.
 

Grizzlyb

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Hmm, You're right about that, UV can bring damage to Your eyes.
And it is new for me that some HID bulbs emit a lot of UV.
Good info, thanks.
 
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