My first Surefire. Impressed by Incan 6P Defender

Got a Surefire 6P Defender (Incan) from LA Police on closeout for $50. With it being an Incan(battery sucker) and rated by SF at only 60 Lumens I went ahead and ordered a LED Drop-in from Solarforce to put in it (will probably get a Nailbender later just wanted something cheap to play with first lol) ... But I have to say I am very impressed with the brightness and throw from this stock incan that came in it.

I found a place to test some lights out its an empty parkinglot with no direct lighting with a 4 story building on 1 end that is empty/blacked out at night.

I took a Mag XL100, Rominsen Aspheric(C3?), Xeno F8, Surefire 6P, and a Maglight 2D running on 6AA with a Terralux 3 XPG in it and shined them at this building, its about 120-150 feet away.

The 6P was very throwy (imo) a big spot on the wall with little flood to the surrounding area but was definetly brighter then I expected.
The Xeno F8 was noticably brighter than 6p and had a large spot with generous spill around it lit up a large portion of the wall as a whole.
The XL100 was able to reach out that far but was not terribly bright or much of a discernible spot/flood.
The Rominsen Aspheric was nice, large square spot on the side of the building, pretty bright too.
The Terralux mod'd Mag was by far brighter then the others and was easily visible on the building in all 3 levels.(it cycles 1 LED then 2 then all 3) With all 3 LEDs on it lit up almost the entire side of the building.
I'll go back out there once I get the led drop-in and maybe try my hands at some beam shots(Noob) but I am limited on time since I do this on my lunch hour at work LOL and hopefully wont get the cops called on me

Anyway... thanks for reading(if you do)

Were you more impressed with the brightness or with the quality of light? Most of us that use xenon-halogen lights despise the wavelength of light output of most LED's. It's not about the brightness for me, but the quality of light, which makes a huge difference in your ability to see clearly in the dark. More so than the quantity of light.

Slasher42 said:

The 6P was very throwy (imo) a big spot on the wall with little flood to the surrounding area but was definetly brighter then I expected.

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Reflectors work better, collecting and redirecting light that is thrown sideways at them. LEDs push much of their light forward and are at a disadvantage for throw, given the same size reflector.

ampdude said:

Were you more impressed with the brightness or with the quality of light? Most of us that use xenon-halogen lights despise the wavelength of light output of most LED's. It's not about the brightness for me, but the quality of light, which makes a huge difference in your ability to see clearly in the dark. More so than the quantity of light.

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Absolutely, right on the money 100%, I could not agree more. Some user's here who exclusively use the LED's will never experience the quality of light that comes from a well driven high quality incandescent flashlight, otherwise us incan guys would start seeing much more activity over on the incandescent forum.

Seems by "impressed" you really mean "pleasantly surprised"

Good you are happy with it, but of course for a light of this size and with those cells, there are countless options that put out way more light. Oh and do it for longer.

Also, am I correct in thinking this model is not even HA-III ano?

As you can tell, I just don't see that there is anything about this light but "extremely out of date"


:thumbsdow

uknewbie said:

Seems by "impressed" you really mean "pleasantly surprised"

Good you are happy with it, but of course for a light of this size and with those cells, there are countless options that put out way more light. Oh and do it for longer.

Also, am I correct in thinking this model is not even HA-III ano?

As you can tell, I just don't see that there is anything about this light but "extremely out of date"


:thumbsdow

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Which would indicate to me that you have neither knowledge nor first hand experience in regards to the full spectrum of light, the 3 dimensional effect, and the unrivaled color rendition that well driven incandescent's produce, something that you're High CRI LED's have yet to fully match. There may be other options that put out more quantity of light, but is the quality of that light any good? In regards to the massive amount of LED's floating around out there, my answer would be no.

uknewbie said:

Seems by "impressed" you really mean "pleasantly surprised"

Good you are happy with it, but of course for a light of this size and with those cells, there are countless options that put out way more light. Oh and do it for longer.

Also, am I correct in thinking this model is not even HA-III ano?

As you can tell, I just don't see that there is anything about this light but "extremely out of date"


:thumbsdow

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Once again, the AMOUNT of light is not what's important to us incan users, it's the quality of light, which is far superior to most LED's. As far as the fit and finish of the typical Surefire, out of date is probably a good thing, as 'up to date' (which is a matter of opinion) foreign made lights seem to suffer from sloppy or thin threads and poor machining and cost just as much while not retaining their value. And why make them to high quality specs, the typical user will be tossing it out or giving it away in less than a year and buying another one of the same with a new LED.

If amount of runtime per cell and QUANTITY of light is all that is important to you, then LED's will serve you well. Same if you like to rebuy the same cheap light with thin type III finish and circuit board contacts and some hokey circuit and cheap switch that provides multi-modes.... every few months to stay 'current'.

So if you want to buy a Surefire in type III finish, it's not hard to do. Or nitrolon. Or their gloss black type II finish, which is generally of higher consistency than the 'type III' on cheaper made lights.

ampdude said:

Were you more impressed with the brightness or with the quality of light? Most of us that use xenon-halogen lights despise the wavelength of light output of most LED's. It's not about the brightness for me, but the quality of light, which makes a huge difference in your ability to see clearly in the dark. More so than the quantity of light.

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I think it was mostly brightness that impressed me, since SF rates it at 60 lum and now days even the AA on my keychain is rated higher then that I didn't expect the 6p to be very bright. "Quality" of light was fine but didn't seem like it was amazingly better then a high CRI / warm tint led. (Perhaps I do not perceive the "quality" the same as others... )

uknewbie said:

Seems by "impressed" you really mean "pleasantly surprised"
Good you are happy with it, but of course for a light of this size and with those cells, there are countless options that put out way more light. Oh and do it for longer.
Also, am I correct in thinking this model is not even HA-III ano?
As you can tell, I just don't see that there is anything about this light but "extremely out of date"
:thumbsdow

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I will almost assuredly be changing the 6P to a led drop in... Have a solarforce on the way and will likely order a XML from Nailbender soonish.
As for the snub at the Ano and being out of date... A quality light is a tool, in my opinion tools are to be used. Scratches or dings that occur as long as they do not effect the functionality and dependability of the tool are just character marks... Have you seen the "Beat up lights" thread?? And I can always have it polished out and refinished later ...

Slasher42 said:

I think it was mostly brightness that impressed me, since SF rates it at 60 lum and now days even the AA on my keychain is rated higher then that I didn't expect the 6p to be very bright.

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The P60 is rated at 60lm, but with a fresh set of batteries the output of a typical P60 is over 100 lumens. Your keychain light probably also has a smaller reflector and a blueish tint. Light from it will probably wash out and be more diffused because of the smaller reflector and poor wavelength.

As for the snub at the Ano and being out of date... A quality light is a tool, in my opinion tools are to be used. Scratches or dings that occur as long as they do not effect the functionality and dependability of the tool are just character marks... Have you seen the "Beat up lights" thread?? And I can always have it polished out and refinished later ...

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Exactly. And I think if I was going to refinish a light, it would be a high quality light like a Surefire.

ebow86 said:

Some user's here who exclusively use the LED's will never experience the quality of light that comes from a well driven high quality incandescent flashlight, otherwise us incan guys would start seeing much more activity over on the incandescent forum.

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This member has experienced this, via a CPF get-together, and I still have no desire to go back to incandescent.

I will agree that good incandescent light is more "eye pleasing", but in terms of raw functionality I have not had any problem with any LED flashlight.

I will take lumens over "less lumens but more quality" any day (should say NIGHT here lol!).

I don't see anyone doing anything with an incandescent (of similar output rating) doing anything I can't do with my Malkoff M60. I just don't see that.

EDIT: To the OP - get yourself a Malkoff dropin for your 6P, you WON'T regret it!

Sometimes when I go outside and fire up some of my better incandescents, and am greeted with wonderful full spectrum light, I sometimes say to myself, is there something that I'm missing here? Am I the only one that still enjoys the quality of light these breed of illumination tools produce I ask myself? The LED forum rolls on and on, with new post's every single day about the latest and greatest LED lights, yet the incandescent forum sometimes feels like a graveyard.

It's sad that so many scoff at the notion of using an incandescent flashlight because they look at some spec sheet and say "this many lumens for only that long? I can get an LED that does triple that!", when unfortunately they don't seem to understand there is more to the story than numbers on a spec sheet. Not all lumens are created equal.

ebow86 said:

Sometimes when I go outside and fire up some of my better incandescents, and am greeted with wonderful full spectrum light, I sometimes say to myself, is there something that I'm missing here? Am I the only one that still enjoys the quality of light these breed of illumination tools produce I ask myself? The LED forum rolls on and on, with new post's every single day about the latest and greatest LED lights, yet the incandescent forum sometimes feels like a graveyard.

It's sad that so many scoff at the notion of using an incandescent flashlight because they look at some spec sheet and say "this many lumens for only that long? I can get an LED that does triple that!", when unfortunately they don't seem to understand there is more to the story than numbers on a spec sheet. Not all lumens are created equal.

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Nah I am sure you are not the only one, but there are not so many.

It is not just the spec sheet, if your nice "full spectrum of light" has went out after 50 minutes having dimmed the whole time, while an LED light has remained at a constant level for 2 - 3 hours then that is the reality, not just the spec sheet.

I used to have a few stock and modified incans, 5761, ROP etc and I saw a warmer tint for sure, but also a messy beam pattern, not the neat or perfect circles that can be had with LED easily, more heat and much less runtime.

That's why in the end I got rid of them all and have nothing but LED now.

BTW, I agree about some colour rendering issues. I can see greens differently with a warmer tint. I just think this is exaggerated quite a lot. I have used my white LED lights for years, including as a LEO and never had any problems spotting people or things at night.

uknewbie said:

Nah I am sure you are not the only one, but there are not so many.

It is not just the spec sheet, if your nice "full spectrum of light" has went out after 50 minutes having dimmed the whole time, while an LED light has remained at a constant level for 2 - 3 hours then that is the reality, not just the spec sheet.

I used to have a few stock and modified incans, 5761, ROP etc and I saw a warmer tint for sure, but also a messy beam pattern, not the neat or perfect circles that can be had with LED easily, more heat and much less runtime.

That's why in the end I got rid of them all and have nothing but LED now.

BTW, I agree about some colour rendering issues. I can see greens differently with a warmer tint. I just think this is exaggerated quite a lot. I have used my white LED lights for years, including as a LEO and never had any problems spotting people or things at night.

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Some of the turboheaded surefire incandescent's produce some of the most beautiful beams in existence, the 9NT is a common example used. The Surefire A2 aviator also produces a beautifully white flawless beam. The reason you have experienced messy beam patterns is because you were using modified maglite's, which of course produces a less than perfect beam, even when using a textured reflector the results won't always be desirable.

Incandescent technology was halted at a very critical time, surefire had an entire lineup of fully regulated incandescent flashlights in the prototype/testing phase, but unfortunately they were scrapped because of the advancements in their LED technology. However, there has been 3rd party advances that have significantly improved incandescent flashlights. A good example is AW's soft start switches, which offer multiple levels of output along with soft starting, a technology that vastly increases lamp life. There are countless other modifications for the Surefire M6 that are extremely innovative and advanced. Plus with the advent of high quality lithium ion cells the performance has been improved dramatically. There is lots of room for the incandescent flashlight to improve with the technology we have.

Of course there will always be a debate on the topic, at least for the foreseeable future. Myself, along with others, still believe that although LED's have made tremendous strides in the last few years, the quality of light that halogen/xenon incandescent lamps produce is of a higher quality than that of the light emitting diode, and we are willing to take all the shortcomings that come along with it, because the result of getting that full spectrum of light is worth it. When a high CRI LED comes along and can match what my best incandescent's can do, then I will retire them on the spot, but until then, I'm just fine with burning up tungsten with a little bit of halogen and xenon gas mixed in.

If peoples options to get a nice incan beam are some very high priced Surefires that don't take re-chargeable cells to fuel their rather brief run times, you are not selling the idea!

uknewbie said:

If peoples options to get a nice incan beam are some very high priced Surefires that don't take re-chargeable cells to fuel their rather brief run times, you are not selling the idea!

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That's another common misconception among some LED users that you cannot run incans on rechargeable cells. It's mostly a lack of knowledge more than anything. You can run any 9 volt lamp on two rechargeable lithium cells. You can also often run 12 volt lamps on three. And there are 3.7 volt lamps out there that run on a single cell such as made by Streamlight and Lumens Factory. My EDC is a Vital Gear FB3 running a Lumens Factory EO-E2R running off of two P17500 cells. This equates to about an hour and a half of runtime @ 150 lumens. If I need more light than that, I can put in another set of P17500's or three CR123A's.

uknewbie said:

It is not just the spec sheet, if your nice "full spectrum of light" has went out after 50 minutes having dimmed the whole time, while an LED light has remained at a constant level for 2 - 3 hours then that is the reality, not just the spec sheet.

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Put in another set of batteries man. I appreciate that LED's are more efficient, but most users act like we are only restricted to one batteries for the rest of our lives. And the fact is that with lithium batteries, the brightness curve is not that steep. Especially with lithium ion rechargeable cells we see a brightness curve that stays fairly constant with incans to the end of the run. Lithium primaries aren't too bad either. It's when you get into the alkaline based incans where you see a steeper brightness curve.

uknewbie said:

If peoples options to get a nice incan beam are some very high priced Surefires that don't take re-chargeable cells to fuel their rather brief run times, you are not selling the idea!

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Sorry uknewbie but you're way off the mark here. Nearly every single surefire incandescent out there, along with other brands as well, can take lithium ion rechargeable cells, very effectively in most cases. There are countless configurations to choose from, take a look at this guide here , there are so many different lamps and battery configurations to choose from it's absurd to suggest that "Surefires that don't take re-chargeable cells to fuel their rather brief run times", for someone to say this is no doubt an indication that the individual has a serious misconception.

And it doesn't take high priced Surefire's to produce beautiful beams. Many of the lower priced Surefire incans along with a few other brands produce beautiful beams, and don't cost a fortune, this is especially true with all the closeouts going on. Although pricey, the turboheaded surefire incandescent's, particularly the older discontinued turboheads like the 3 inch T series and SRTH, along with the right lamp assembly and power source, can produce beams that are so gorgeous and flawless, that no LED on the market can match it in it's beauty. Hit the switch on a Surefire M4 with MN60 lamp assembly, and you will instantly see what all the fuss is about.

If you've already got 18650 cells, an fairly cheap way to get into a high powered incan is a SolarForce L2 body, a single 18650 extender tube, and a P90 or equivalent lamp assembly. I bought this setup as a result of Carrot's "incan challenge" a little while back. This is a bright, simple setup that can be carried easily enough in a jacket pocket, and doesn't break the bank.

Shown below with a 2C Maglite for comparison.

When I found a SF C2 on a craigslist I immediately made plans to get an LED drop-in to replace the stock incan lamp. However, I no longer have those plans. The beam is simply very pleasing. I'm sure I'll start to notice the "superior color rendition", but right now I find the warm beam to be very comfortable to look at. I have plenty of bright LED's, another would be redundant.

Like many on this forum, I have plenty of incandescents and LED flashlights. I usually use the LEDs for indoors and when I need longer battery life. The only incandescent I would bring most times is my trusty old Surefire A2. It's LEDs appear to have been specially chosen by PK to give a bad name to LED color rendition.

What the incandescent forum needs to come back from the graveyard status is a regulated incandescent that runs on rechargeables. Too bad no manufacturers see new development of hot wires as a good market.

The standard P60 is an impressive little lamp, especially when it was in its heyday. The hotspot on my last one was similar in brightness and throw to my Malkoff M60, didn't have anywhere near the flood/spillbeam though.