Surefire's lack of interest in neutral, warm, and High CRI LED's

ebow86

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A week or so ago I commented on Surefire's facebook page basically saying a few words as to why I don't like the idea that surefire is showing no interest in neutral, warm, and high CRI LED's. Surprisingly, I actually got a response back, and the Representative explained that the current crop of warm tinted LED's are much less efficient in output and runtime and that they currently use the cooler tinted LED's because they offer the greatest output and efficiency, along with a few other detail's, like pointing out the the saint vision, which is the only warm or neutral tint (not sure which one) they are offering.

Needless to say I send a message right back explaining that the better color rendition that these LED's offer is a much greater advantage than sheer output, that these types of LED's are not that far behind in output and runtime compared to their cooler tinted counterparts, and also that there are several other manufactures producing extremely high quality neutral and warm tinted LED's (I wanted to scream MALKOFF!!!!), and said some other stuff like how the general flashlight community is realizing the superiority that these types of LED's offer over the typical cool ones and that sales are booming.

Now I know that one person's stance typically doesn't speak for the whole company, however, it does seem though that this person's attitude does seem to reflect what Surefire is thinking. They apparently don't show very much interest at all, and releasing the minimus vision is hardly a step in the direction IMO. Had they released a flashlight with a neutral or warm tint as well, them I might give them some credit. But knowing surefire, and seeing how virtually every new model of light they are releasing doesn't feature a neutral or warm LED, I can't help but feel that it could be a while before we see one from them. Hopefully I'm wrong.

In my most humble opinion, neutral and warm tinted LED's are the future. We are all becoming aware of the advantages they offer, and while it might be a while before they are mainstream in your kmart store, I see more and more people here that are seeing the light, neutral and warm light that is.
 

richpalm

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Well, this'll get it canned, but they have no interest in making 'em affordable, either.

Glad I build my own-just got done doing a 4500K triple XML Mag mod that I'm really pleased with. I agree with you on neutral for outdoors-it's much easier on the eyes without sacrificing much output, if you drive them well instead of the piddly amperage of most production lights.

Rich
 

GreySave

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In the long run I think you are correct. But for now, the major players (Military, law enforcement, etc....) that SureFire caters to are looking for the very things that SureFire currently delivers. I think that SureFire does also try to please those in the general market with release of lights such as the AA powered Outdoorsman and the Saint Vision. The release of those lights does, to me, signal that they are recognizing the changing marketplace and are adapting to it with products that they believe will be profitable for them to produce. In time, there may be a greater mass demand for neutral and warm tinted lights and when that happens SureFire will deliver. We on this forum are often looking for cutting edge lights, and by doing so we are helping to steer the market as well, but at a very gradual pace.
 

ebow86

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Well, this'll get it canned, but they have no interest in making 'em affordable, either.

Glad I build my own-just got done doing a 4500K triple XML Mag mod that I'm really pleased with. I agree with you on neutral for outdoors-it's much easier on the eyes without sacrificing much output, if you drive them well instead of the piddly amperage of most production lights.

Rich

I appreciate you taking the time to post Rich but throwing in "making them affordable" is completely irrelevant to the topic in hand, and will most likely result in this thread getting closed. Please keep the discussion on topic please. I would like to see other's opinion's and comments on this without the thread getting locked because we went into an off topic flame war, which is exactly what your irrelevant comment is in danger of doing.
 

Brasso

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Let's face it. 99% of the general public doesn't even know warm or High CRI lights exist. Most of those wouldn't care if they did know. Surefire sells enough of their blue tinted lights that they don't really care what a small percentage of us think. And I doubt they really care about efficiency, or they wouldn't still be using P4's. But, I have 6 of the darn things and love them.

Except for a small run of high CRI's, HDS doesn't really care either. If the demand was there, they would make them. Obviously not enough people care enough about it to make it a priority.
 
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Vox Clamatis in Deserto

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Surprisingly, I actually got a response back, and the Representative explained that the current crop of warm tinted LED's are much less efficient in output and runtime and that they currently use the cooler tinted LED's because they offer the greatest output and efficiency, along with a few other detail's, like pointing out the the saint vision, which is the only warm or neutral tint (not sure which one) they are offering.

Well, as many have observed on previous CPF threads, SureFire's LED models are great lights - too bad about the emitters. SF is still selling pricey front line lights with XR-E's and SSC P4 emitters (the K2 Mil-Spec even has a venerable Luxeon III I believe) while many other non-budget makers have been doing mostly XP-G's and XM-L's for a while now. Some of this may be due to the years long product specification and procurement cycle of the government customers. I can relate, at work I use legacy specialty computers that have recently been upgraded to 6 megs (not gigs) of ram and cost tens of thousands of dollars each.

Has SF shipped the Saint Vision yet? Or is it yet another catalog dream that may or may not ever go past SHOT Show prototype stage?

Still as David, Henry and other light designers have observed, the warm/neutral LED's have a cult following here on CPF but tend not to be overly successful commercially in the consumer marketplace. I'm on the road with a SF E1E with a Z68 tailcap, a VME head and a Malkoff M61W dropin (so it will take RCR's) in my pocket. I've got a SF C2 in my bag with a Nailbender 4000K three-mode dropin. Thanks to my CPF friends for leading me to these nice warm and neutral emitter upgrades. However, if the mainstream customer checks the dropin specs, they will indeed list less lumens than the cool white versions. And, in the shrink wrap and online mass marketplace, it's often all about numbers and checkboxes on the packaging when the customer makes a buying decision. Malkoff and Nailbender are niche market packaging minimalists but SF appeals to a broader market in their recent product packaging documentation.

SF has indeed finally introduced XP-G's and XM-L's in bookend placements in their product line with the 6PX/G2X and the UB3T.
 

geckoblink

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I'd be happy if Surefire just catered more to the non-CR123 crowd. To be completely honest warm/high cri is really low on my list of priorities when considering a light. High/low lumens, runtime, battery type and configuration, user interface, and carry options are all higher than tint in my book.
 

TyJo

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Similar to Maglight, Surefire has to churn out an incredible amount of flashlights. I think that all the R&D and the sheer amount of lights they produce results in them having slightly outdated emitters (they must use emitters that are available in large quantities). This problem probably prevents them from using Warm/Neutral emitters as well, and as others have stated, no body cares about tints except some of us on CPF.
 

ampdude

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I think Surefire will come to realize the advantages of the high cri and warm tinted LED's. With a highly driven xenon-halogen you are able to recognize your surroundings or target much quicker than with a typical output LED. In tactical situations information fast is everything and that's why Surefire developed the P61 and P91 lamp assemblies. It may take awhile, but I think Surefire will eventually come arond to using premium tinted LEDs, even if it is against their business interests at this time. I imagine the high volume market that the defense industry is, at this time they probably cannot procure the necessary amount of warm or high cri emitters, hence the response you got from the representative. As always, their military contracts are their #1 concern.
 
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pjandyho

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Although I am a warm tint fan, I don't restrict myself to only warm tinted emitters in my purchases. When it comes to defense purposes I agree that brightest is best and since our eyes are more sensitive to white light than it is to warm, cool white makes the best choice for the said application. That said, it wouldnt be fair to expect Surefire to offer warm white variation (much as I would love to) across their entire product line.

But, I did email Surefire as a form of a suggestion for their R&D, that warm tinted lights are beneficial for those outdoor guys who would prefer the warmer tints for color rendition and depth perception when out in the woods, and what better candidates than their Outdoorsman's product line? Their reply was that they are in the midst of offering warm tint variety in their future product offerings. At that point when I wrote to them, the Minimus Vision was already in their 2011 catalogue so don't go around thinking that I have anything to do with influencing Surefire in their R&D.

When reading up on the Minimus Vision in Surefire's website two nights ago, Surefire did indicate something along the line of having warmer tints in improving color rendition (afraid I couldn't be more specific in giving an exact quote as I am always having problems accessing SF's website whenever I am connected via 3G on my iPad). So, give them some time. Surefire has been listening to some of their users and have offered us the Minimus Vision for a start. I am sure there will be more in the pipeline.
 

jh333233

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Whats the point of OP
What surefire wants is reliability, efficiency and simplicity
On battlefield what soldiers want is only a reliable light which doesnt fail
As long as it lights up, whos(soldier or other law enforcement) going to take care about the tint, isnt it?
Maximizing the output while considering runtime is important where batteries supply maybe limited
 

richpalm

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They sell mostly to the "G" anyway. I'm in agreement; for most lumens=cool white. But if I was a cop with CPF knowledge, I'd want a neutral for crime scenes, etc.

Rich
 

pjandyho

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Whats the point of OP
What surefire wants is reliability, efficiency and simplicity
On battlefield what soldiers want is only a reliable light which doesnt fail
As long as it lights up, whos(soldier or other law enforcement) going to take care about the tint, isnt it?
Maximizing the output while considering runtime is important where batteries supply maybe limited

Whenever we speak Surefire, people would always jump to conclusion and stereotype or associate Surefire with military and LE contracts. Can't blame those who do think so since Surefire have always been in the forefront of product R&D for such a contract. But we can't omit the fact that many of Surefire's product line are targeted at day to day users. A good example would be the Outdoorsman series which I mentioned above (they are not named Outdoorsman for no reason) and some other lights like the T1A Titan, L1 Lumamax, and maybe even LX2 Lumamax.

I think the OP's post make perfect sense and just because you are not agreeable to having warm tints in your lights doesn't mean that others couldn't request for one.
 

TyJo

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Whats the point of OP
What surefire wants is reliability, efficiency and simplicity
On battlefield what soldiers want is only a reliable light which doesnt fail
As long as it lights up, whos(soldier or other law enforcement) going to take care about the tint, isnt it?
Maximizing the output while considering runtime is important where batteries supply maybe limited
You might want to reread the OP. While Surefire makes some of the best lights available, they are not using the most efficient emitters. HighCRI/tint will not affect reliability at all. Better CRI/tint can allow a soldier to identify colors and contrast better, which might be useful for medical personnel, etc. Additionally, the perceived brightness difference between a Warm/Neutral emitter and a more efficient Cool white emitter is barely noticeable at best.
 

ZMZ67

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In regard to flashlights I agree with Brasso,99% of the general public doesn't know anything of high CRI or tints.Joe public and even most military/law enforcement will look at reliabilty,output and efficiency without considering tint or color rendition.Even among the manufacturers that produce neutral/warm LED lights only some of them have regular production models.When I first started lurking on CPF I was all for bright "white" LED lights myself.Until individuals see real world comparisons it is hard to convince them of the advantages of neutral/warm tints.Of course there are still those with a preference for cool tints in the end anyway so SF is serving the larger market.I would imagine tint/CRI will eventually get some higher profile attention in LE,Outdoor and military markets.SF will probably respond when that happens.On the up side there are many SF incan lights at clearance prices that will accept quality neutral/warm drop-ins that are as good or better than much of the current LED light line-up IMHO.
 

Flint&Steel

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Based on what's been seen by SF, we'll see neutral/High CRI in 8-12 years, simply based on their past performance. Best to buy one of their soon-to-be discontinued incan versions and add a a Malkoff or nailbender drop-in, unless you're willing to wait a decade for a stock neutral/High CRI.

Still, SF hosts are the best, so get one and juice it up with an aftermarket drop-in
 

Illum

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+1 ZMZ67

I'd like to know, out of curiosity, how many flashlight users, under the assumption that they never knew about high CRI, would consider the use of a flashlight beyond its basic necessities: intensity, longevity, portability, and given thought to consider what it should look like when used? Suppose they do know the existence of NW, WW, and high CRI LEDs, given their needs are excepted from that of photography or studio lighting, what bearing would they consider say Malkoff devices over turnkey packages?
We have had the opportunity to explore Malkoff products and understand its potential in usability, but how much of it really matters out there in the layman's hands begs the question. Some of us go for neutral or high CRI LEDs because over the years we have learned and are driven by desire rather by need. Before NW, WW, CRI LEDs entered our peripheral vision, cool white suited needs just fine. It didn't resemble anything close to tungsten incandescent, but I haven't heard of anyone that couldn't do what they needed to do with a cool white light.

There's no doubt surefire's lights offer some room for improvement, but if the cost doesn't equate to the perceived benefit, there's no point wasting the money for it.
 
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Dr Jekell

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As TyJo & ampdude have pointed out surefire manufacture a very large number of units (lights) every month.

Which would make more sense for them to use?

A cheaper, proven, widely available LED (even if it is an older tech)

or

A more expensive, limited availability LED
 

leon2245

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Surefire's lack of interest in neutral, warm, and High CRI LED's
I'm okay with this. What if until then, you just selected a color from the appropriate page in the Lee Filter Swatch Pack® book, as Derek Dean instructed?



I'd be happy if Surefire just catered more to the non-CR123 crowd.
Yeah I'm more concerned with this, getting my T1AA. Not looking good for any of us though. Sorry ebow. Seriously you already mentioned the best suggestion- your malkoff drop-in, especially since s.f. incan models are at discontinued-sale prices now.
 
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