French missles in Iraq?

James S

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Very interesting NEWS ARTICLE this morning.

Evidently some Polish troops found several French anti-aircraft missles in Iraq. Nothing too horrible about that, they have sold them to Iraq in the past. But that was the distant past, France says they haven't sold any to them in 20 years. However, these were manufactured in 2003.

Of course, they weren't sold through any official channels, they must have been stolen or smuggled or perhaps the polish troops don't know how to read the french serial number?

With a trail so fresh, hopefully they will be able to discover just where some of these things are coming from you think?
 

JonSidneyB

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you must have missed it. some of the missles that were thought to be extended range scuds were also french missles and not scuds at all.
 

Double_A

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I just went to the article, next to it was an update where the Polish after talking to the French say they were wrong. Missiles not current manufacture.


Greg
 

tsg68

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It doesn't matter that the missiles weren't current manufacture. Many foreign states (yes us too) sell off surplus stockpiles to other nations at reduced prices. I'd bet 75% or more of the military hardware on the market for foreign purchase are surplus govt. stockpiles. The French were still a major source of military hardware to Iraq even after the first Gulf War. They also had major oil field development contracts (as did the Russians) in the works with Iraq prior to the U.S. Led invasion.

I believe the French were even the major catalyst in the Israeli nuclear developement programs (remember the Greenpeace sabotage and sinking)

I'm not saying the French are awful, just that they have as many commerce based reasons to oppose the war as we did to start it. You know people in "glass houses" and all....

TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 

treek13

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Actually, it does matter because it looks like the report that the French violated the sanctions was completely wrong. Roland missiles haven't even been made since 1993 so the 2003 manufacture date can't possibly be true.

According to the update, the French exported Roland missiles to Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war. Since the UN imposed sanctions in 1990, they have neither sold weapons nor parts to Iraq.

Pat
 

kev1-1

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Why has France become such a target for bashing in the U.S? All they did is disagree with Bush's foreign policy decisions. Something which has happened in the past. Why has this disagreement over Iraq caused such an apparently extreme reaction among you U.S types? I ask out of interest...France disagreed with Blair to on this matter, but over here people aren't so worked up about it, as it appears you are in the U.S...
 

pedalinbob

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How about those nice twin-task lights!

cant wait to get my hands on some...

where are the best prices? i was thinking brightguy...

heh, heh, heh...

Bob
 

Double_A

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Re: How about those nice twin-task lights!

Kev1-1

Many believe that France will often do things that are in their own interest and ignore any harm it does rest of the world.

And of course the rest of the world perceives the USA of having the same faults.

So who is right? who is wrong? and how do you honestly know?

GregR
 

kev1-1

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Re: How about those nice twin-task lights!

I wasn't bashing the U.S, or France!, that topic has been done to death already. I was just really interested to know why France has been singled out...and it seems continues to be so...for attack (as it were) on this subject. I never knew the U.S had a a thing for French bashing before. Every country has a country they like to joke about. I would have thought that it would have been somewhere closer to home...like Canada or something!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 

BentHeadTX

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Re: How about those nice twin-task lights!

kev1-1,
I think it is a tradition, we were a Brit colony at one time. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink2.gif I was in Greece back in 91, hung out in a British pub and they asked me this question: "Why do the British hate the French"? I had no idea but his reply was this: "Because everyone else does". I figure it is a tradition with us ex-brits /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif
Personally, I really don't care... although the baggage handlers destroyed two pieces of my luggage when I transfered through Paris connecting to Turkey.
 

MichiganMan

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I think its also the way they objected. They didn't just express a difference of opinion, they called Bush and the US every name in the book and characterized it as a petty "Blood for Oil" war. Then we find out that [gasp!] it was their oil contracts that they were most concerned about, not the poor suffering Iraqi children with whom they were self rightously bashing us over the head in the press.

Surprisingly people tend to resent that kind of treatment.
 

James S

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Yea, looks like the Polls couldn't read the serial numbers right /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Oh well, a couple of quick meetings with Chirac and it's all cleared up.

As far as why France got such a hard ribbing this time around is exactly for the reason that MichiganMan notes. They were extreemly outspoken but it was really insulting stuff and not just a disagreement. More like childish taunting and name calling. A lot of countries disagreed, but only France called us names.

And that was all amplified by the fact that our silly token gesture of freedome fries and similar little nose thumbing was not taken as a joke and made them even more mad. If you can't take a joke, the the heck with you.
 

JonSidneyB

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I thought part of the problem was also the interests that Miterand had in Iraq and some personal financial dealings in Iraq as well. And it is odd that so many nations that colonized other nations take the currents stands that they do.
 

tsg68

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[ QUOTE ]
treek13 said:
Actually, it does matter because it looks like the report that the French violated the sanctions was completely wrong. Roland missiles haven't even been made since 1993 so the 2003 manufacture date can't possibly be true.

According to the update, the French exported Roland missiles to Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war. Since the UN imposed sanctions in 1990, they have neither sold weapons nor parts to Iraq.

Pat

[/ QUOTE ]

Pat, there are other accusations on the board that France may have been funneling weapons and weapon related materials into Iraq after the UN sanctions were imposed by utilizing forged "End User" certificates (a popular method used by many illegal arms dealers) to get arms into neighboring countries like Syria where they would then be transported by truck or small planes into Iraq. Another method being investigated is one of bypassing the sanctions by brokering purchases of materials from their own suppliers for direct shipment to neighboring countries where they would be infiltrated by the same means or for direct shipment to Iraq by suppliers in countries knowingly and openly violating the sanctions (like Russia and China). One such instance is that France brokered a deal with a Chinese supplier for a chemical component of solid rocket propellent. Sounds like either skirting or violating the sanctions to me.

The known fact that from 1973-91 on the legal market, France accounted for the second (Russia was first) largest sales total of weapons and weapon related materiels to Iraq and that after the Gulf War, France controlled the largest portion of the "Oil for food" program not to mention that Saddam's govt. was forging new and bigger business deals with the French in an effort to influence the French Veto of Security Council Measures for the use of force prior to the Invasion, makes me wonder what else they could have been up to. And makes me question their motives for attempting to avert the Invasion. Russia's too.

Again, this isn't French bashing, I just want folks to realize that alot of the dissent propagated by France, Russia and Germany against the use of force in Iraq was economically motivated and not the "humanitarian" effort it was "spun" into being for the populace of those countries or the international media. To me the UN has proven to be the biggest three ring circus act ever. Right now Iraqi oil production is at 75% of total capacity with the UN sitting on it's duff instead of forging the go ahead for the sale of this oil to benefit the rebuilding process and finance the formation of the new govt. Soon the Iraqis will have to either sell this oil or stop producing the only GNP resource they have, and the key to their future. The UN is an obsolete and highly corrupted organization of ineffectual lamos.

TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 

Double_A

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kev1-1

LOL, my cousins and family in Canada bash the French also. I think it may also have to do with the fact the French appear to so smug and superior in culture.

GregR


As for the Brits bashing the French, I seem to remember this movie...what was that line... oh yea, spoken by the English to the French invaders...I fart in your general direction....lol
 

Ratus

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Well if we just wanted the Iraqi oil, a few diplomatic words are a hell of a lot cheaper the 400+ billion dollars.

[ QUOTE ]
tsg68 said
The UN is an obsolete and highly corrupted organization of ineffectual lamos.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why yes, they are. Did you hear about the $1 billion dollar interest FREE loan they want from the U.S. Gov. They need it to make repairs on their New York headquarters.

They probably have no intention of ever paying it back.

------
Double_A

The movie is "Monty Python and the Holy Grail"

Also you have it backward, it's from the French to English.

Some of my favorite are
<ul type="square">[*]"Go away or I will taunt you a second time"
[*]"What is the air speed of an unburden swallow"
[/list]
more to follow /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 

ikendu

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kev1-1 said: ...extreme reaction [to France] among you U.S types?

NOT everyone in the U.S. forgot that France supported us in Afganistan just a few months earlier. Or...that our republic wouldn't even exist if it weren't for the support of the French fleet at Yorktown (which predated Normandie by how many decades?).

When you are trying to distract a populace...you use every possible method available. Creating race or culture hate is one of the tried and true methods.

So...French fries and french toast became "freedom" fries and toast. LOL!!!!!

I heard a great piece on NPR that said if we REALLY wanted to insult the French...we'd name even more of our manufactured foods after their country. Like: French cheese fries or rename the McFlurry to the McFrenchie!

If we were really serious about important issues and product renaming, we'd name biodiesel and ethanol "Freedom Fuel"! But...going for redirecting American interests toward a sustainable and secure energy future is way more difficult than taking cheap shots like "freedom fries". LOL again.

Candidate Bush promised us humility in foreign policy. President Bush has ignored important world issues (like the August briefing he got before 9-11 on the Al Quaeda plan to stike the U.S. within the United States. And, instead of humility, we have gotten humiliation as we have acted arrogantly and unilateraly in our own selfish interests while accusing other countries that wouldn't go along of acting in their self interests (like we don't somehow?).

Those of us who live in the U.S. should be asking this:

$15 billion of the $87 billion request for Iraq funds are to build infrastruture like water and new electrical plants. I think that is very likely absolutely necessary. Probably more is needed. But why isn't the $15 billion dollars to build Iraqi infrastructure a loan instead of a grant? Hmmmm. Maybe if it was a loan...we'd have to let the Iraqis let the contracts to local Iraqi firms instead of "no bid" work for appointed U.S. firms like Halliburton?

So...we taxpayers will be footing the bill for building brand new power plants in Iraq while they have all the economic power in the world to fund it themselves. Or rather...our children will be paying for it for years to come, since we won't raise taxes now to pay for our war and we are borrowing the money instead.

Sorry...I guess I didn't get quite enough sleep last night to be tolerant of the Bush administration monkeying with our heads to benefit their friends.
 

DieselDave

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Why isn't the $87 billion a loan? Answer: Because of the waste of flesh in the UN. As far as Iraqi firms doing the work...Which Iraqi firms? They don't have companies with the expertise or resources to take on the task. You can be sure that thousands of Iraqi's will be employed by these US companies to help in the rebuilding.

Ikendu said: I heard a great piece on NPR that said if we REALLY wanted to insult the French...we'd name even more of our manufactured foods after their country. Like: French cheese fries or rename the McFlurry to the McFrenchie!

I do like that idea. How about Rocky Mountain Frenchless oysters.

Ikendu said: President Bush has ignored important world issues (like the August briefing he got before 9-11 on the Al Quaeda plan to stike the U.S. within the United States.

Pleaseeee, that statement is baseless and reeks of the likes of someone like this guy instead of you. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
carville-argue4.jpg

No it's not Lucifer himself, it's Carville.

Sorry...I guess I didn't get quite enough sleep last night to be tolerant of the left monkeying with our heads to benefit their agenda. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Bring on the Freedom Fuel. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif
 

ikendu

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Ikendu said: Bush has ignored ...August briefing...Al Quaeda plan to stike the U.S.

DieselDave said: ...Pleaseeee, that statement is baseless

Dave, I don't mind that you and I don't share the same perspective on every issue (and it is interesting from time to time to find ones where we do agree)...but if you are thinking the "briefing thing" is baseless...I do very much have to disagree with that.

Here is a link to the Washington Post article about this. I'm sorry it isn't actually ON the Washington Post site but apparently you can only search their site back 14 days and no longer.

August [before 9-11] Memo Focused On Attacks in U.S.

I don't think that this briefing took place is seriously disputed.
 
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