Data in CERN experiment suggests that neutrinos MAY travel faster than light

Mjolnir

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Given the fact that this forum is rather light oriented I am surprised no one has posted about this earlier:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15017484

Researches at CERN have produced results which seem to suggest that neutrinos traveled faster than light, which of course is impossible in our current (and experimentally backed up) understanding of physics. The researchers are of course very cautious about drawing any conclusions, as it hopefully is only due to experimental error of some kind. Otherwise, we would potentially need to reexamine our basic understanding of special relativity.

Here is a link to a preprint of the paper if oyu are interested (it hasn't been peer reviewed; it is only a preliminary paper on the topic by the researchers):

http://static.arxiv.org/pdf/1109.4897.pdf

It won't make complete sense unless you have a PHd in high energy particle physics, but it is interesting to see the data directly from the source.
 

PhotonWrangler

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I'm not a physicist but I've read some credible sounding speculation that their measurement method might be flawed. For as much as I want to believe that they've made a real breakthrough, it might not be the case. If I can find that quote I'll post a link to it.
 

Mjolnir

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The researchers themselves are speculating the very same thing. They are encouraging others to attempt to reproduce the results in order to determine what the error may be. I think much of the physics community is hoping that this is some sort of error, as violating the speed of light would pretty much pull the foundation of much of modern physics out from under us.
 

DM51

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The speed of the neutrinos as measured in this experiment is only 0.0025% faster than light speed. That is a fairly small difference, equivalent to an increase from 1,000,000 --> 1,000,025. (25 parts in a million).

If the measurements turn out to be accurate, the implications are significant; but it is a small enough difference for it to be possible that some kind of error occurred.
 
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Th232

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The speed of the neutrinos as measured in this experiment is only 0.0025% faster than light speed. That is a fairly small difference, equivalent to an increase from 1000 --> 1002.5.

0.0025% => multiplying by 0.000025 if I'm not mistaken, so 1000 to 1000.025.

Things will get very interesting if this isn't an error.
 

DM51

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You are right - my apologies. I've edited that post.

They apparently repeated the experiment several thousand times, and the result was the same. However, the time to be measured was tiny (0.0024 secs) and the discrepancy vs. light speed even smaller (0.00000006 secs). The source/transmitter was 732 km (~500 miles) distant from the detector/receiver, so it is possible there was an error in synchronising the two with complete precision.
 
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mvyrmnd

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This is the fun thing: while this, if true, will change a lot of things, it won't destroy our current knowledge. If the way we currently understand physics is wrong, then many of the technologies we use today simply wouldn't work. This discovery would only add to understanding of the universe.
 

Th232

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Very true. Perhaps our current understanding will be like various areas of classical mechanics, maybe not 100% accurate but good enough for most things.
 

DM51

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This is the fun thing
Agreed, but it would have been a lot more fun if the neutrinos had been measured travelling at twice light speed, or ten times as fast.

As it is, the discrepancy is fairly small, so it is possible an error has occurred. Perhaps the scientists assumed the neutrinos would travel in a straight line, without taking into account the curvature of space-time. Might such an error lead to a difference of ~30 feet in the length of the route? I'm not sure.
 

mvyrmnd

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30 feet over 500 miles doesn't count for much, but on the trip to Alpha Centauri it would add up :)

So how do we build a starship out of neutrinos? (Neutronium?)
 
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Imon

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Interesting - when I read the title of this thread I thought it was going to be about faster than light travel in a certain medium. Light does slow down, slightly, when it goes from the vacuum of space and into our atmosphere or from the atmosphere into water.
 

DM51

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Neutrinos travel through any medium unaffected. A neutrino will pass right through the earth without any diminution of velocity.
 

flashflood

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I'll have to go digest the full paper now, but given how small the difference is, my first thought is to wonder whether neutrino oscillation is causing a classic phase velocity vs. group velocity measurement error. Anyone know the DeBroglie wavelength of these neutrinos vs. the excess distance traveled?
 

DM51

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math3.jpg
 

woodentsick

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The researchers themselves are speculating the very same thing. They are encouraging others to attempt to reproduce the results in order to determine what the error may be. I think much of the physics community is hoping that this is some sort of error, as violating the speed of light would pretty much pull the foundation of much of modern physics out from under us.

I respectfully disagree. Physicists, in fact all scientists, are always looking for new knowledge. I personally think that many, if not most of the physics community is hoping that the results are correct, because that would open up another exciting avenue of knowledge.

Woodentsick
 

TedTheLed

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what's faster than light? I'll tell you; the speed at which Emp deleted my first post in this thread, that's what...
 

Mjolnir

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I respectfully disagree. Physicists, in fact all scientists, are always looking for new knowledge. I personally think that many, if not most of the physics community is hoping that the results are correct, because that would open up another exciting avenue of knowledge.

Woodentsick
Well technically good scientists should not be hoping either way, but should be looking at the issue from a neutral point of view (which is usually not the case). I admit that it would be interesting if this were true, and if it was a result of some spatial anomaly it would not destroy our current understanding of physics, which we know experimentally to be true. Many articles are saying that this is going to "overturn all of Einstein's theory of special relativity" which of course is not true because we have proven many components of it. I suppose it isn't fair to say that the scientists are "hoping" this was an error, but I think they are fully expecting it to be some sort of error, given that the difference is suspiciously small.
 

woodentsick

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Well technically good scientists should not be hoping either way, but should be looking at the issue from a neutral point of view (which is usually not the case). I admit that it would be interesting if this were true, and if it was a result of some spatial anomaly it would not destroy our current understanding of physics, which we know experimentally to be true. Many articles are saying that this is going to "overturn all of Einstein's theory of special relativity" which of course is not true because we have proven many components of it. I suppose it isn't fair to say that the scientists are "hoping" this was an error, but I think they are fully expecting it to be some sort of error, given that the difference is suspiciously small.

True, scientists should be looking from a neutral POV. However, we certainly haven't 'proven' any of Einstein's postulates, because it science, nothing can be proven, only that the theory fits it with current and past experimental results. Th232 pointed out earlier in this thread that if the results were true, then special relativity would certainly not become 'obsolete' or 'overthrown', but they will simply be true only in a certain range of situations (much like Newtonian mechanics: not always the case, but good enough for many situations). I very much agree with this.

Woodentsick
 
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