LED light in the rain!

chiphead

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 16, 2003
Messages
1,155
Location
Hutto,TX
In the wee hours of the morning here in Austin/TX(yes, it rain in Austin) I was caught in a nasty storm with my Solarforce-L2/Mil3 unit. Although the unit handle the rain with it well lubed o-rings, I was shocked by the amount or light being reflected back at me! And I'd swear that the throw had dropped off some and the rain was heavy! The the forecast for more rain (we hope) I'm taking an Incan/Xenon just to see the difference. Has any else seen something like this in the rain or fog for that matter?
chiphead
 

DisrupTer911

Enlightened
Joined
May 25, 2011
Messages
269
Location
NJ
any white light will reflect back, you need a yellow temperature light to cut through rain and fog conditions.
 

DREW297

Newly Enlightened
Joined
May 22, 2010
Messages
38
Location
DALLAS TX.
In my experience led and hid above 5000 kelvin are to white/blue for good vision in rain, snow, or fog.
3-4k kelvin seems the best for our eyes to me. And I'm in texas too and was out in the storm last night
with a surefire e1e powered by lumens factory 90 lumen eo e1r and my l1 running an aw cell that is around 180 lumens.
Without a doubt i could see much better with my incan. Both have tight beams so it was kinda an apples to apples
compairison. oh and a floody beam in the rain causes alot of light to be reflected back at you to.
 

B0wz3r

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Sep 26, 2009
Messages
1,753
Location
San Francisco Bay Area
Drew is right on the money. A cool, floody light is the worst type of light to use in rain or fog type of conditions, because you will get a lot of glare from the reflection of the light back at you. Ever wonder why the ocean is blue? Because water absorbs red and yellow light and reflects blue light. Your best bet for good performance in the rain is a warm tinted thrower, 4,000K and below in color temp. My best rain light is my old Jet III Pro ST with an XRE Q3/5B emitter in it. It's warmish neutral (about 4,000K) and with the XRE and the narrow but deep OP reflector, it's rather throwy, and cuts through rain and fog very well. Also, lower modes work better in these conditions too, because the brighter your light, the more reflectance you'll get. Using a lower mode decreases the percentage of light lost through scattering and reflection.
 

Retinator

Enlightened
Joined
Feb 13, 2007
Messages
377
Location
Brampton, ON
I've used them in moderate rain (LEDs & Incans) without issue, but in intense storms, couldn't say.

I can tell ya, fog is fun, but higher powered lights hurt in it.

Oh and aim for the ground in front of you for navigating.
 

lightfooted

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
May 6, 2010
Messages
1,017
Drew is right on the money. A cool, floody light is the worst type of light to use in rain or fog type of conditions, because you will get a lot of glare from the reflection of the light back at you. Ever wonder why the ocean is blue? Because water absorbs red and yellow light and reflects blue light. Your best bet for good performance in the rain is a warm tinted thrower, 4,000K and below in color temp. My best rain light is my old Jet III Pro ST with an XRE Q3/5B emitter in it. It's warmish neutral (about 4,000K) and with the XRE and the narrow but deep OP reflector, it's rather throwy, and cuts through rain and fog very well. Also, lower modes work better in these conditions too, because the brighter your light, the more reflectance you'll get. Using a lower mode decreases the percentage of light lost through scattering and reflection.

The ocean is blue??? Truly??? I guess next time I want to get some blue water to make some mixed drinks with I should just run to the beach. And what about Sunsets...wouldn't that mean an ocean sunset wouldn't be orange or red then?

Seriously, the ocean is not blue....it is simply reflecting the light reaching it....something all water tends to do, even murky brown water will still reflect light. The reason you can be blinded in a heavy rain storm is because all of those raindrops are acting as little lenses reflecting your light back at you and color temp has nothing to do with how much but rather how sensitive your eyes are to the light getting reflected back to you. Trust me...those raindrops are bigger than any difference in wavelength you are still able to see with. Fog? Okay there may be a slight advantage with a longer wavelength but I'm still skeptical and think it is more a factor of which is easiest on your eyes.
 
Last edited:

B0wz3r

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Sep 26, 2009
Messages
1,753
Location
San Francisco Bay Area
The ocean is blue??? Truly??? I guess next time I want to get some blue water to make some mixed drinks with I should just run to the beach. And what about Sunsets...wouldn't that mean an ocean sunset wouldn't be orange or red then?

Seriously, the ocean is not blue....it is simply reflecting the light reaching it....something all water tends to do, even murky brown water will still reflect light. The reason you can be blinded in a heavy rain storm is because all of those raindrops are acting as little lenses reflecting your light back at you and color temp has nothing to do with how much but rather how sensitive your eyes are to the light getting reflected back to you. Trust me...those raindrops are bigger than any difference in wavelength you are still able to see with. Fog? Okay there may be a slight advantage with a longer wavelength but I'm still skeptical and think it is more a factor of which is easiest on your eyes.

You need to read about something called Rayleigh scattering.

The ocean may not be blue where you live, but it is. When it's just water, without any algae or anything like that in it. It's blue. Don't believe me? Look at any satellite image of the Earth. What's all that blue stuff all over the world? Wouldn't you know? It's the oceans!!!

As I said, read up on Rayleigh scattering. And water does reflect light, you're right about that. The light that it reflects best is blue light. That's why it looks blue. That's also why warm tint lights work better in the rain. They have less blue in them that gets reflected back at you. And as for water drops acting as lenses, you need to read up on your optics as well. Lenses to not reflect light, they refract it as it passes through. Mirrors reflect light, not lenses. Yes, some light can reflect off the surface of a raindrop, but as I said before, that light is going to be blue. When you're using a warm tint light, the amount of light reflected back toward is going to be significantly reduced.

It is ALSO what our eyes are sensitive to. We see yellow as brighter than any other color. This is because both the red and green cones are activated fairly strongly by yellow light. The brain encodes brightness in terms of signal strength. Yellow light stimulates more receptors in the retina than any other color except for white (which, strictly speaking in terms of light, is a combination of all other wavelengths, or colors). Let's put it this way. If I showed you two lights, a red one, and a blue one, both of equal objective intensity, for the sake of argument, say, 1000 candela. The red one would appear brighter to you than the blue one. Why? Because we have about 4x as many red cones as blue cones in the retina, and since the brain encodes brightness by the intensity of the incoming signal, the red looks brighter as a result. It's simple psychophysics, any junior or senior psych major learns this in introductory sensory perception (which I happen to teach).

So when that warm light, reddish, yellowish, etc. is not reflected off the raindrops/mist droplets, it passes through acting like a lens, it then hits something on the other side, and reflects back to us from that object and we then see the object. As I said... basic psychophysics. I'd suggest you try some sources; Sensation and Perception, by Richard Harvey Shiffman. Another good one is Visual Perception: Photons to Phenomenology by Stephen Palmer (who was a professor of mine at Cal Berkeley). Another good intro textbook is also "Sensation and Perception" by E. Bruce Goldstein.
 

gcbryan

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
2,473
Location
Seattle,WA
I don't know the answer here so just asking...is the color of the light in this example really that important? We are talking about light hitting a rain drop rather than a body of water. If it is that important however then wouldn't red be the best color to use as it would be absorbed first...correct?

When you are diving everything is blue (or black of course) until you introduce additional lighting. Red is the first color to disappear (longest wavelength), followed by yellow, green, and then blue.

With car headlamps however changing the intensity and angle seems to do the trick rather than color.
 
Last edited:

lightfooted

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
May 6, 2010
Messages
1,017
Okay Bowzer first of all...did you read up on Rayleigh scattering? I only ask because everywhere I looked it was talking about the very thing I described above...blue sky being reflected by water, it's all about why the sky is blue. All of them talk about the sky...no mention of the ocean except when they describe it just as I did.
Secondly...rain is essentially just small drops of water right? Ever put a small drop of water on a piece of transparent plastic then held it over a bit of small text? Yes it makes a small magnifying lens. Y'know those TIR lenses that so many people are just all happy about...basically just solid forms that act in the same way...refracting light and reflecting it off of the inside surface to focus it. As to the psychophysics...well I cannot comment on anything other than the odd name for such a facinating field of study.

It is still my opinion though, as I have not found any experiment or demonstration that suggests otherwise that the wavelength of the light makes almost no difference until the water droplets get down to near molecular size. I do intend to do some experimentation of my own though.
 

dheim

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Sep 15, 2011
Messages
97
lightfooted, not to say that your personal opinions on the matter are not important, but B0wz3r works in the field of neurophysiology, so i think he knows the stuff... :whistle:
 

tatteredmidnight

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Messages
102
Ever wonder why we use Infrared technology to see through fog? Warmer tints are better for seeing through rain and fog. Birds have known this forever.
 

B0wz3r

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Sep 26, 2009
Messages
1,753
Location
San Francisco Bay Area
Okay Bowzer first of all...did you read up on Rayleigh scattering? I only ask because everywhere I looked it was talking about the very thing I described above...blue sky being reflected by water, it's all about why the sky is blue. All of them talk about the sky...no mention of the ocean except when they describe it just as I did.
Secondly...rain is essentially just small drops of water right? Ever put a small drop of water on a piece of transparent plastic then held it over a bit of small text? Yes it makes a small magnifying lens. Y'know those TIR lenses that so many people are just all happy about...basically just solid forms that act in the same way...refracting light and reflecting it off of the inside surface to focus it. As to the psychophysics...well I cannot comment on anything other than the odd name for such a facinating field of study.

It is still my opinion though, as I have not found any experiment or demonstration that suggests otherwise that the wavelength of the light makes almost no difference until the water droplets get down to near molecular size. I do intend to do some experimentation of my own though.

Thanks DH... my specialty is visual neurophysiology and psychophysics.

LF: I do know about Rayleigh scattering, and I know a lot about optics as well, because I teach sensory perception at my college. (I have a friend who has been a professional portrait and landscape photographer for 20 years, and I know more about optics than he does.)

Okay, enough hubris. Honestly, I really don't like spouting off like this on this or any forum about my education or career.

The generalized optical effects of water working as a lens only really apply when you have a significantly larger amount of water; a drop of water on a page of text is a lot bigger than a raindrop. Also, raindrops aren't round... in fact they're rather amorphous and subject to all the buffeting that goes on in the wind that accompanies a storm, so the chance that all the raindrops falling being properly shaped enough to act like lenses, let alone mirrors, is astronomically slim. If that was the case, when you shine a light out into a rainstorm, you'd get a disco-ball effect. With respect to Rayleigh scattering, I admit that effect is really most applicable in situations where you have something like fog, or mist, or a situation where there is a high density of scattered particulate matter in the air, like smoke. (Though smoke causes different refractive effects than fog because of it's different constituency.)

And what Bryan said about the color absorption of water is correct. Blue is the last color absorbed. This creates an effect called subtractive color mixing. Pigments create color by absorbing some frequencies of light while reflecting others. The reason we see leaves as green is because the chlorophyll in them absorbs all wavelengths other than green, and those green wavelengths are reflected back to us, which is why we see leaves as green. While this is the opposite of additive color mixing, which is where you combine more and more different wavelengths to create white light, even though water does refract light, it is also an absorptive material. That is why there's always some light loss in a flashlight even with ultra-clear lenses, and lenses with anti-reflective coating. Water has the same sort of absorptive effect as glass.

So, when you shine a light through fog or rain, the colors that are going to be absorbed are the warmer colors, and those that will be reflected are the cooler colors. So when you use a warm tinted light, you get less reflection because of the lower amount of blue light in it. What Bryan said about car headlights is also correct. The reason fog lights are yellow is because they cause less reflection off of the suspended water droplets in the air. And the reason they are always placed lower than headlights is because it increases the angle of the light to your line of sight. This maximizes the tangent function between the angle of the light and the angle of your line of sight, which creates more shadows, and also reduces the reflection to your line of sight. The reflection back will be greater in the direction of the light, and as you increase the tangent from the direction of the light, you get progressively less reflected light. As that happens, you get more scattered light, which is when the Rayleigh scattering comes into play, but the increased tangent also decreases the visual effect of the Rayleigh scattering as well.

That's why warm lights are better in fog and rain than cool lights.
 
Last edited:

Jash

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 4, 2009
Messages
1,649
Location
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
any white light will reflect back, you need a yellow temperature light to cut through rain and fog conditions.

That's why there's a TK20 in my BOB/GHB. I actually don't prefer warm tints myself, I honestly prefer cool white for day to day tasks, but I figured in a situation where seeing is more important than my preferred colour temp, the TK20 with it's throwy beam and warm light suited what I needed.

That and it's outstanding runtime on low, which is still pretty bright when it's completely dark.
 

roadkill1109

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 11, 2011
Messages
2,309
My old Quark S2 is good in the rain. Light's almost neutral. yellowish/greenish tint. Not great, but it works better in the rain than my L1C's R5.
 

Zendude

Enlightened
Joined
Sep 4, 2008
Messages
341
Location
Fairfield Ca.
I love it when B0wz3r gets all scholarly!

This reminds me of a similar thread about moonlight and wavelength absorption.


One of the things I love about CPF is that highly specialized/educated people take the time to share their knowledge for the benefit of the community:thumbsup:.........even though it sometimes devolves into a shouting match.:rant:
 
Top