Surefire, Fenix and Streamlight

As a general question: Fenix and Streamlight seem to be much cheaper the Surefire. What does surefire have to justify the high price? On paper the Fenix and Streamlight lights seem to match or even outperform the Surefires. Fenix and Streamlight, however, also do not appear cheaply made so what is the deal? (Sorry for my ignorance.)

Specifically I have selected two lights from each manufacturer that I am interested in.

Streamlight:
ProTac™ 2L (180, 10 lumen) ~ 55 USD
Scorpion X ~ 55 USD (200, 10 lumen) ~ 55 USD

Fenix:
PD31 Special (304, 124, 67, 2 lumen) ~ 80 USD [Regulated]
TK21 (448, 180, 58, 5 lumen) ~ 100 USD

Surefire:
G2X Pro (200, 15) ~ 85 USD
LX2 LumaMax (200, 15 lumen) ~ 150 - 200 USD

On paper fenix is brighter for less money then Surefire.
On paper Streamlight has the exact same performance as Surefire but at a much lower price, ProTac is a quarter of the price of LumaMax.

To top it all off, from the above selected light, PD31 is the only one that advertises regulated output (that is no dimming in light until the very end.).
If I had to make an uninformed decision I would purchase the PD31 for its regulated output.

1. Are the surefire and streamlight lights NOT regulated?
2. What can possibly justify the high price of the LX2 LumaMax?

thanks for reading.

Here we go...

No offense intended but I am sure you are ignorant to the fact that threads like yours' always end up being closed because it usually ends in a Surefire vs. so and so war. There are tons of thread started on why Surefire are so good and you have been here since 2007 so please do a search in CPF before posting.

no please understand that I do not want this to be a surefire vs. bla thread. I simply want to understand the features that Surefire has that the others may or may not have.

For example I have heard that Surefire has TIR optics on the LumaMax, but I do not know what that is so I wouldn't understand why it justifies a higher price.

Maybe Surefire has regulated output on all of their lights? I don't know. I simply want to understand the features of the lights so that I can then make a decision. Maybe I want TIR optics, maybe not. I don't know as I don't know what they are and I have never held or played with any of the above lights, again I just want to know whats "beyond the specs/paper".

EDIT: BTW I am also looking for answer to my very specific question, is the PD31 the only regulated light in the line up?

thanks

Bear in mind that I do not think of myself as a Surefire Kool-Aide drinker...the one and only Surefire I own is a 6z from about 20 years ago. I've owned Fenix and love 'em. My newest light is a Sunwayman V20C, which I'm crazy about. But if I needed a light that I could "trust with my life", I would get a Surefire. They are overbuilt little tanks that run the LEDs on the conservative side so that you can run 'em at max non-stop without concern.

I think anyone would agree that one of the factors as to why Surefire is more expensive than Streamlight and Fenix is because of advertising/ marketing costs. Flip through any industry related magazine and you will find at least one full page advertisement from Surefire. Those ads aren't cheap.

One reason why surfire is so expensive is because its made in the USA and american workers are more expensive. But the main reason surefire is so expensive is because they are built to last forever and if anything ever happens to one they will repair or replace the torch free of charge since they all have a life time warranty.

Maybe a more appropriate way to ask your question, then, would be to explain your needs to us and ask for thoughts on which one suits those needs best, and leave discussion of price out of it, as that has been done to death. Price/value varies by person, and that's why it is volatile subject matter. An objective discussion of the relevant features of the lights, however, is a useful discussion indeed.

nbp said:

Maybe a more appropriate way to ask your question, then, would be to explain your needs to us and ask for thoughts on which one suits those needs best, and leave discussion of price out of it, as that has been done to death. Price/value varies by person, and that's why it is volatile subject matter. An objective discussion of the relevant features of the lights, however, is a useful discussion indeed.

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+100! Just exactly what I wanted to say. Spent some time typing it and my internet connection got cut.

Shooter21 said:

But the main reason surefire is so expensive is because they are built to last forever and if anything ever happens to one they will repair or replace the torch free of charge since they all have a life time warranty.

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I don't think that's the reason at all. Streamlight has just as good of a warranty as Surefire, yet comparable Streamlight models typically cost anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2 less.

dosei-45 said:

Bear in mind that I do not think of myself as a Surefire Kool-Aide drinker...the one and only Surefire I own is a 6z from about 20 years ago. I've owned Fenix and love 'em. My newest light is a Sunwayman V20C, which I'm crazy about. But if I needed a light that I could "trust with my life", I would get a Surefire. They are overbuilt little tanks that run the LEDs on the conservative side so that you can run 'em at max non-stop without concern.

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thank you, this was the type of response I was looking for.

fivebyfive said:

I think anyone would agree that one of the factors as to why Surefire is more expensive than Streamlight and Fenix is because of advertising/ marketing costs. Flip through any industry related magazine and you will find at least one full page advertisement from Surefire. Those ads aren't cheap.

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Also very helpful, thank you.

Shooter21 said:

One reason why surfire is so expensive is because its made in the USA and american workers are more expensive. But the main reason surefire is so expensive is because they are built to last forever and if anything ever happens to one they will repair or replace the torch free of charge since they all have a life time warranty.

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I assume Fenix and Surefire are not made in the USA? Also a helpful reply, thank you

nbp said:

Maybe a more appropriate way to ask your question, then, would be to explain your needs to us and ask for thoughts on which one suits those needs best, and leave discussion of price out of it, as that has been done to death. Price/value varies by person, and that's why it is volatile subject matter. An objective discussion of the relevant features of the lights, however, is a useful discussion indeed.

Click to expand...

Since you asked:
1. Must be CR123 based (long shelf life)
2. Must run off of two cr123 (this roughly sets the size of the light with some variance in reflector design)
3. Must be a regulated output of light, that is the brightness of the light is constant until the batteries are drained at which point it rapidly cuts off. (In contrast to the old incandescent lights that diminish as soon as you put a battery in)
4. Must have at least two modes: One that is very bright and one that will make the batters last more then 24 hours yet be capable of illuminating a trail in front of your feet.
5. Submersible to at-least 1 meter.

This should be a flashlight that is very versatile, no specific applications in mind. BUT it must be reliable.

Specific Questions:
1. What is this "Total Internal Reflection (TIR) lens" that Surefire advertises, and how does it compare to the lens on a the fenix PD31?
2. Is the PD31 the only one out of the above mentioned that has regulated output.

thanks to those of you that have responded.

EDIT: Again I apologize as I did not mean to start a Surefire vs. Fenix vs. Streamlight thread, I was/am overwhelmed by the offerings from these companies and want to understand the pros and cons of them.

Surefire is made in the USA but fenix and most other brands are made in china

1. SureFire TIR lights use a special lens in place of the reflector used on most lights. It's supposed to do a better job of capturing all output from the emitter (thus the name) and focus it into a tighter beam. This doesn't mean that it's a throw monster with no spill, it's just more focused than similarly sized lights.
2. The LX2 is regulated but I'm not sure about the others. You can see more info on the SureFire website.

Like someone else mentioned, it really has everything to do with personal taste and intended use. As far as output is concerned, SureFire has the reputation, deservedly in my opinion, of rating their lights very conservatively. Also, as others have mentioned, they don't push their LED's as hard as some manufacturers in the interest of longevity and reliability.

God this has been debated so many times but its still relevant. I was there a year ago. Since then I have bought about 10 Surefire's and 8 Chinese lights. I have sold all but 1 of the Chinese lights and have kept the Surefire's, except my 6PX Pro*. I do not have unlimited resources I just like quality stuff. To get an idea get yourself an account over on the marketplace. Look for some Surefire's. Ones that are 5 years old will still sell for typically no less than $50. Get one of these and give it a whirl. If you don't like it just sell it the next week and you will get your money back. Everything about them just screams quality. The threads are nice and feel good. The walls of the lights are thicker. It fits together better. If you have any issues with them you simply call the SF customer support line, and within 2 minutes you are talking to an American. If anything has gone wrong with the light, almost anything, they will just send you a replacement part/light. I emailed O-Light last week, twice, and still have not heard back. That was $139 SR-51 I had a question about. Wasn't a cheapy.

I would however stay away from the 6px/g2x series of lights. I have not had good luck with them. They have a mode bump issue that is pretty well recorded over in that thread that is always in the front. Ive sent my 6PX back to them twice and they have replaced it with new ones both times, but all 3 of them had the issue. Another factor is the upgradability of the 6p, c2, z2, etc series. There is a ton of aftermarket parts that you can buy from the likes of Malkoff, Nailbender, etc. These are "P60" series parts. When a new LED comes out you can simply sell your old one, and buy a new one and plop it into your Surefire. This applies to both the e series, l series, and the other guys I just mentioned. The new g2x, 6px however are not easily upgradable.

In the end you can try to save a few bucks and buy the foreign made lights. If you are like me though you will constantly wonder what the hype is about, then you'll take the plunge. Then you will realize what you were missing out on the whole time. Also, don't pay full price for any Surefire. Again, they are constantly on the Marketplace and there are many retailers that advertise here that offer up to 20% off new SF products. This can bring the price down considerably. Once you are in this quality light world you will also find the likes of Malkoff and HDS to be most desirable. Good luck, and save your pennies.

All of those lights are regulated, and you can even find a runtime graph on the Scorpion X's Fact Sheet.

http://www.streamlight.com/documents/fact-sheet/209.pdf

Shooter21 said:

Surefire is made in the USA but fenix and most other brands are made in china

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Most of Streamlight's products are made or assembled in the US (ie. Stinger and Strion), but the ProTac series is Made in China. This information can be found in the Fact Sheets on their website.

While there is nothing wrong with Streamlight or Fenix (they do make nice lights), Surefire is simply a cut above. If you, like me, demand excellence from your tools, Surefire will put a big grin on your face and not let you down.

880arm said:

1. SureFire TIR lights use a special lens in place of the reflector used on most lights. It's supposed to do a better job of capturing all output from the emitter (thus the name) and focus it into a tighter beam. This doesn't mean that it's a throw monster with no spill, it's just more focused than similarly sized lights.
2. The LX2 is regulated but I'm not sure about the others. You can see more info on the SureFire website.

Like someone else mentioned, it really has everything to do with personal taste and intended use. As far as output is concerned, SureFire has the reputation, deservedly in my opinion, of rating their lights very conservatively. Also, as others have mentioned, they don't push their LED's as hard as some manufacturers in the interest of longevity and reliability.

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Thank you. This is exactly the kind of information I need to make an informed decision. (Too bad I can't try them out first : P)

Shooter21 said:

Surefire is made in the USA but fenix and most other brands are made in china

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Good to know.

ITPython said:

Most 4Sevens lights meet all of these demands, especially the Tactical series since you can program any two modes of light into the head (which can be changed by simply turning the head). So no retarded cycling through 10 modes to access the light you want, just program the head for whatever two modes you want, and you can change it at any time too.

Here is the Tactical R5 123x2 edition. It has a max mode with 230 lumens at 1.8 hours, a high mode at 65 lumens for 4.5 hours, lower 22 lumen mode that lasts for 20 hours, a low mode with 4 lumens for 4 days, or a moonlight mode that lasts for 30 days.
http://www.4sevens.com/product_info.php?cPath=297_306&products_id=1654

Or a brighter, more efficient, more floody, XM-L version.
http://www.4sevens.com/product_info.php?cPath=297_429&products_id=2686


Lets go through the checklist:

1. Must be CR123 based (long shelf life) - Check
2. Must run off of two cr123 (this roughly sets the size of the light with some variance in reflector design) - Check
3. Must be a regulated output of light, that is the brightness of the light is constant until the batteries are drained at which point it rapidly cuts off. (In contrast to the old incandescent lights that diminish as soon as you put a battery in) - Check
4. Must have at least two modes: One that is very bright and one that will make the batters last more then 24 hours yet be capable of illuminating a trail in front of your feet. - Check
5. Submersible to at-least 1 meter. - Check

This should be a flashlight that is very versatile, no specific applications in mind. BUT it must be reliable. - Definitely a check here, 4Sevens lights are very dependable and rugged.


Your welcome

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Well damn, that light does look very nice and affordable. Just when I thought I was ready to make a decision this pops up. Defiantly a big thanks for pointing me to this light.

This sure does make me wonder why Fenix claims longer runtime AND higher lumen output, with the same LED and same battery setup. mhh ...

What type of regulation does the 4seven light use, is it current regulated like the fenix and lumamax?

thanks

gothed said:

This sure does make me wonder why Fenix claims longer runtime AND higher lumen output, with the same LED and same battery setup. mhh ...

What type of regulation does the 4seven light use, is it current regulated like the fenix and lumamax?

thanks

Click to expand...

Fenix does not use as stringent tests as 4sevens. Like Surefire, 4sevens tends to underrate their lights.

The Quark Tactical models are current regulated. The MiNis are not.

carrot said:

Fenix does not use as stringent tests as 4sevens. Like Surefire, 4sevens tends to underrate their lights.

The Quark Tactical models are current regulated. The MiNis are not.

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Damn it guys, these 4seven lights seem nicer then the fenix AND cheaper. So I guess ill go with a 4seven light, but now the question is XM-L vs. XM-G. waaaaa, sooo hard to spend money

Are there beamshots comparing the XM-L and XM-G versions of the quark. I only found http://lygte-info.dk/review/Beamshot Quark 2011-08 UK.html which compares the XM-L to the PD-31 which is XM-G, but not to the quark XM-G.

thanks guys