Is there a difference in runtimes between HDS Rotary and Clicky?

Biginboca

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Jun 26, 2009
Messages
78
If I were comparing the Rotary and the Clicky with the same output, say lowest setting, would one run noticably longer than the other?

In other words, do you significantly sacrifice efficiency for the rotary feature? I know on the sunwayman and the jetbeam rotary or ring controlled lights the runtimes on low are comparitively short. I'm wondering if the same holds true for the HDS.
 

TyJo

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 9, 2011
Messages
1,011
Location
USA
I was wondering this as well. I don't recall seeing any runtime tests on the lowest modes for the new 200 clicky unfortunately. In the HDS thread I asked for the runtime of the 200 Clicky in the lowest mode but IIRC no one did a runtime test or had DMM readings to calculate. I tested the rotary and got ~6-7 days on the lowest mode in rotary setting using a Surefire CR123 (replicated by another member as well). I'd like to know what the 200 clicky would get.
 

Biginboca

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Jun 26, 2009
Messages
78
Compare the runtimes of the 200 Rotary http://www.light-reviews.com/hds_systems_edc-r1s-200/ with the runtimes of the 140 clicky http://www.light-reviews.com/ra_clicky/
They are close. So I assume the 200 clicky and 200 rotary would have pretty much the same runtime.

Thanks for that. I looked and they do seem similar on medium and high settings, but the runtimes on low aren't given. I think on low is where the efficiency of the UI would come into play. Like sunwayman v10r and jetbeam rt-0 both don't go more than 100 hours at minimum (<1 lumens) outputs.

I think there may be a significant sacrifice at low for the rotary because as TyJo posted only 1 week was measured on low for the rotary but on HDS site it says over 2 weeks runtime on low for the clicky.
 
Last edited:

Biginboca

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Jun 26, 2009
Messages
78
In case anyone is interested I emailed Henry and here was the reply:

"The runtimes are equal between the two family trees as the electronics that drive the LED are essentially the same. The rotary control is fully digital and consumes almost no power. For a proper apples to apples comparison, the max outputs would have to be the same and the brightness level compared would have to be the same."
 

nutcracker

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
189
Location
Germany
Thank you. I guessed right. Henry did it the right way, he find a solution that drain no power.
 

Hondo

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 26, 2005
Messages
1,544
Location
SE Michigan
Funny, I thought someone had taken current measurements and determined that at the very low settings, the Rotary did use significantly more power. BTW, I know that, at least for the original HDS designs, the lowest level (0.08 lumens, not the default low of like 0.3 lumens), will run for about a month on a CR123. The default low was rated at 200 hours. Is it possible that when you get THAT low, "almost no power" becomes a significant percentage of the near-zero power that the LED is using, and will significantly change run time?
 

pjandyho

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 29, 2003
Messages
5,500
Location
Singapore
I have read somewhere that there is a high overhead on low output for rotary based lights be it Sunwayman, Jetbeam or HDS. For the life of me, I couldn't understand what overhead is all about. Anyone care to help a dimwit here?
 

Hondo

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 26, 2005
Messages
1,544
Location
SE Michigan
I believe that the term "overhead" is the subject of this thread. Basically, it refers to a fixed amount of power consumed in order to keep the light running, and in this case, that means keeping the rotary feature actively in the loop, so that the light will respond to inputs to the dial. This would mean additional power that would not be used if the feature were not present, as in a Clicky, or ultimately a single level light. Even the clicky has a certain, although negligible, overhead of it's own, all electronically controlled lights like this do. The question here is does the Rotary have a significantly higher overhead than the Clicky.
 

pjandyho

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 29, 2003
Messages
5,500
Location
Singapore
Thanks Hondo. I think I am getting it now. So, it means there must be certain level of power to keep the light active, just so to maintain the operational readiness if I can put it this way, and when I run the light to lower levels then I may not necessarily get a longer run time because the light still needs this amount of draw to maintain it's active state. Did I get that right?
 

nutcracker

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
189
Location
Germany
I think we have to divide here.
Is the lowest setting managed by the rotary switch or is it programmed to a mode space?
Do you get these two circumstances?

One being, setting the value of 0,08 lumens (fix) to preset/mode A (or B, C, D)
And the other, using the rotary mode on preset/mode A (B, etc) and dimming the light with the rotary knob down.

Maybe there are differences.


PS: Does the "overhead" mean the same as "parasitic drain"? Like the electronic switches .
 

pjandyho

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 29, 2003
Messages
5,500
Location
Singapore
PS: Does the "overhead" mean the same as "parasitic drain"? Like the electronic switches .
If I understand Hondo correctly, nope, the parasitic drain to keep the switch on standby is not the overhead we are talking about. I think what he meant is that there must be a certain amount of power needed to keep the light operating (read when already turned on), and that lowest power required is still higher than the power required to produce the moon mode output. So even when the circuitry managed to regulate the light level to a lower output, a higher amount of power would still be required to power the light on and keep it running. The rest of the power would probably go to powering the regulation circuitry, doing battery check, powering the LED, and powering the switch so it can be at ready to receive new commands. All these happening at the same time during the operation of the light, even at the lowest output.
 

nutcracker

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
189
Location
Germany
That sounds ok.
But what is different on the rotary than on the clicky?
Doesn't the clicky have to use the same power to keep the LED running?
 

pjandyho

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 29, 2003
Messages
5,500
Location
Singapore
That sounds ok.
But what is different on the rotary than on the clicky?
Doesn't the clicky have to use the same power to keep the LED running?
Ahhhh... That is what leads us to the OP's question again. I guess the need to provide power to the rotary mechanism could be taking up a little more power? I am not sure either. It's just a guess.
 

Shooter21

Enlightened
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
746
Location
Long Island
it seems to me the rotary does take more power since the battery died quicker in my rotary than it did in my clicky from normal use.
 

TyJo

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 9, 2011
Messages
1,011
Location
USA
Control ring lights tend to be less efficient as a whole then other UIs, as explained all ready in the above posts. The new rotary is less efficient then previous models that would go for a month continuous on the lowest output. I would assume that the clicky would be more efficient, since it doesn't have the extra energy consumption of the rotary switch. Even though the rotary switch is amazing, efficient, etc. it seems it still needs a very small, yet significant amount of power at the lowest levels (IIRC).

If Henry says the clicky and rotary runtimes are the same I believe him. Some of this is over my head but.... It could be that he had to make a compromise with the driver to get the max he wanted, which knocked down the runtime on the lowest level somewhat. This would affect the clicky and rotary equally. None of this really matters for me, I love my rotary and it has great efficiency. However, it would be nice to see a 200 clicky runtime on the lowest setting just to see what the results are (Surefire CR123 cell).

EDIT: Here are some good posts that actually tested the rotary using electrical equipment (1st link is explanation, 2nd link is spreadsheet). I think this was done using or simulating a RCR123 cell:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...stems-EDC-14&p=3648479&viewfull=1#post3648479
https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub...8UdG05Sy1YajlzMTcxTW9UU2ZfekZYOHc&output=html
 
Last edited:

Hondo

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 26, 2005
Messages
1,544
Location
SE Michigan
Yes, those are the posts I recall from gearmonkey. Sorry, pjandyho, I mixed some apples with oranges above. The "overhead" we are discussing has to do with additional draw from the brightness adjustment system when on. I really was thinking of the "parasitic drain" on the old HDS lights, which is when they are in the off state, and that has no bearing here. I guess they too have some overhead, as well as parasitic drain, but it seems it is lower. I believe for most typical use, Henry is right, there is no practical difference. But based on gearmonkey's measurements, if you were to do a run time on 0.08 lumens with the rotary, it would then become a significant difference relative to the clicky. Unfortunately, I only have a high CRI clicky and older HDS lights, no rotary yet, so I can't try it. Maybe Powernoodle can help! He ran a 3 1/2 year locator beacon run time test, so this would be a piece of cake. We might have to loan him the light, though.
 

eh4

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 18, 2011
Messages
1,999
I think we have to divide here.
Is the lowest setting managed by the rotary switch or is it programmed to a mode space?
Do you get these two circumstances?

One being, setting the value of 0,08 lumens (fix) to preset/mode A (or B, C, D)
And the other, using the rotary mode on preset/mode A (B, etc) and dimming the light with the rotary knob down.

Maybe there are differences.


PS: Does the "overhead" mean the same as "parasitic drain"? Like the electronic switches .


Yes! that is the question.

Someone could test 1 Clicky, 1 Rotary set to the lowest Rotary setting, and 1 Rotary with a preset B, C, or D at lowest setting... or for a more limited test they could just take one Rotary and test Rotary (B?)at lowest and set A, C, or D as lowest and test also.
 

TyJo

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 9, 2011
Messages
1,011
Location
USA
Yes! that is the question.

Someone could test 1 Clicky, 1 Rotary set to the lowest Rotary setting, and 1 Rotary with a preset B, C, or D at lowest setting... or for a more limited test they could just take one Rotary and test Rotary (B?)at lowest and set A, C, or D as lowest and test also.
Rotary preset on HDS Rotary has been done (6-7 days), and IIRC someone implied if you set a preset on the Rotary to level 1 (rotary doesn't control it) it will have the same performance as level 1 selected in a rotary preset. I think the only way of knowing for sure is to do a runtime for a 200 clicky or for gearmonkey, or someone else, to repeat his tests on a 200 clicky (ideally a Rotary with preset to level 1-non rotary preset, as well).
 
Last edited:
Top