Neutral the preferred light?

retiredguns · Dec 3, 2011

From what I can tell, the price is a bit more, the output a little less but the lighting more true. Am I on the right track? I'm waiting on a new light and decided to go with nuetral after doing a test with what little I have. The neutral on my Mag mini conversion and Surefire incandescent definitely brings the natural colors out more than the bluesh cheapos but maybe doesn't "seem" as bright. What's the technical reason for the price difference and is neutral generally preferred?

Thanks
Steve

twl · Dec 3, 2011

It depends on the person.
And compounding the matter is that there are many different personal perceptions of "neutral". Some like neutral on the cooler side. Some like it on the warmer side. Some like it right in the middle. It becomes very muddy after a while, and so many people resort to using color temperature numbers like 5000k or 5500k or 4500k color temperature to try to convey their meaning, which works pretty good if you are well versed in what color temperatures look like to you.
In the end it is just a matter of preference, and the preferences are all over the spectrum.

And then you get into color rendition index, which is even another sub-aspect of the color temperature, and is called "CRI". And there can be High CRI (or any other CRI) in any color temp range.

The technical reasons are that certain color temps such as warm have added coatings on the LED to make them this way. This also typically reduces the overall output some. In some cases it might reduce it by 1/3. That's a lot. But if you care about CRI more than output brightness, it might be worth it to you.
As far as cost, it will cost more to have a special bin selection like this, generally. But it might not be much difference at the manufacturers level. By the time it gets to the consumer market, it might be a much bigger difference as the marketing department might decide to charge a premium price for a high CRI light.

Many variables and personal choices.
Just pick what you like best.

Derek Dean · Dec 3, 2011

The more time I've spent with lights, the pickier I've become regarding tint. There is such a HUGE variation in what manufacturers call "neutral" that I've come to the conclusion it's better to start with the brightest cool white LED version of a particular light and then filter it myself. This way I get to pick a tint much closer to my ideal and don't have to worry about the LED tint lottery.

Check out this thread for more details on an inexpensive and easy way to customize the tint of your lights:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?320811-Changing-LED-Tint-With-Filters

Flying Turtle · Dec 3, 2011

I find the neutral tint of SC50w Zebralight to be about perfect. The cools just don't look right any more, except at low levels. Probably won't be buying anything but neutrals or warms now.

Geoff

jh333233 · Dec 3, 2011

I dont know why but even some LED is rated at cold white, like V20C T6
The beam is so white, but without blue
My Q3-WC bin has a purple-blue spill while V20C is visually white
So IMO Neutral wouldnt have any difference to me, as it still depends how its driven, i.e. tint change with driving current

LEDAdd1ct · Dec 3, 2011

It's all a matter of taste. Pick what suits your senses/application best.

kaichu dento · Dec 3, 2011

twl said:
It depends on the person.
And compounding the matter is that there are many different personal perceptions of "neutral". Some like neutral on the cooler side. Some like it on the warmer side. Some like it right in the middle. It becomes very muddy after a while, and so many people resort to using color temperature numbers like 5000k or 5500k or 4500k color temperature to try to convey their meaning, which works pretty good if you are well versed in what color temperatures look like to you.
In the end it is just a matter of preference, and the preferences are all over the spectrum.

And then you get into color rendition index, which is even another sub-aspect of the color temperature, and is called "CRI". And there can be High CRI (or any other CRI) in any color temp range.

The technical reasons are that certain color temps such as warm have added coatings on the LED to make them this way. This also typically reduces the overall output some. In some cases it might reduce it by 1/3. That's a lot. But if you care about CRI more than output brightness, it might be worth it to you.
As far as cost, it will cost more to have a special bin selection like this, generally. But it might not be much difference at the manufacturers level. By the time it gets to the consumer market, it might be a much bigger difference as the marketing department might decide to charge a premium price for a high CRI light.

Many variables and personal choices.
Just pick what you like best.

You did too good of a job iterating what I wanted to convey that there's little need to add anything else!

jh333233 said:
I dont know why but even some LED is rated at cold white, like V20C T6 The beam is so white, but without blue

To me, you just described what I think of as a true neutral - neither cool nor warm, but simply stark white.

LEDAdd1ct said:
It's all a matter of taste. Pick what suits your senses/application best.

And again, perfect lead here and the only thing to add is that you can not go wrong with neutral, as long as it actually is neutral. If it's not, and actually leans towards the warm side, as most seem to do, you will probably still be in luck as it's pretty nice to have some warmth in the beam, as long as it doesn't come with too much yellow or green.

LGT · Dec 3, 2011

While I prefer neutral to warm in the spring and summer, while color outdoors is abundant, in the winter, with a landscape covered with snow, I like using a cool white. I guess it's whatever is pleasing to your eye.

Danjojo · Dec 3, 2011

retiredguns, semper fi brother

I think it's a psychological thing. Warm is similar to a candle/fireplace and (good) cool is more like natural sunlight..neutral is a slight warm. I like cool for a flashlight and as much output as the model can do.

retiredguns · Dec 4, 2011

Danjojo said:
retiredguns, semper fi brother

I think it's a psychological thing. Warm is similar to a candle/fireplace and (good) cool is more like natural sunlight..neutral is a slight warm. I like cool for a flashlight and as much output as the model can do.

Semper Fi & Thank you. I guess if I find the neutral not a "do-all" I'll just have to keep collecting...I mean looking.

tre · Dec 4, 2011

Yes, a neutral tint has better color rendition. This is a fact. There is much documentation about color spectrum and wave lengths of neutral tint vs cool tint. This does not mean everyone likes netral better. Many still like cool tinted lights better. It seems people with more lights eventually prefer neutral.

A neutral has more phosphor on the emitter and about 7% less output than a cool tinted emitter. This is almost not perceptible to the naked eye.

The cost is not any more from many manufacturers. A neutral Zenralight is the same price as a cool tinted Zebralight. The same is true for Malkoff. 4sevens neutrals may cost slight more because they produce so few neutral tints compared to the cool tinted lights. Supply and demand. Low supply = higher price. Also, when producing lights in a smaller special batch, you lose volume and have fewer lights to spread the costs amongst. There is no technical reason a neutral costs more.

LEDAdd1ct · Dec 5, 2011

tre said:
Yes, a neutral tint has better color rendition. This is a fact.

I thought the opposite was true—that a neutral tint is just that, a tint, and may or may not render colors better. It may appeal to some more, or look prettier, or make one color stand out with respect to another. i.e. emphasize reds more than blues, but that in the end, a given LED having a CCT in the range we call "neutral" does not, in fact, mean it will de jure render colors better. It very well may, or it jolly well may not. Please correct me if I am mistaken, but I was led to believe that an LED being classified as neutral does not dictate in and of itself that it will render colors better.

jh333233 · Dec 5, 2011

At the bright hotspot, CW and NW have no difference, it just a bright white area

shane45_1911 · Dec 5, 2011

jh333233 said:
At the bright hotspot, CW and NW have no difference, it just a bright white area

I wish that were true. Several of my "NW"s have a definite greenish hotspot.

I really, really, REALLY wish that "neutral" meant just that - just pure white. Unfortunately, it does not.

jh333233 · Dec 5, 2011

shane45_1911 said:
I wish that were true. Several of my "NW"s have a definite greenish hotspot.

I really, really, REALLY wish that "neutral" meant just that - just pure white. Unfortunately, it does not.

Quite personal and subjective
IMO they are the same at hotspot except CW has a slightly purp blue tint

Scubie67 · Dec 5, 2011

My SC51W is rated at 4200k and I thing its great although if it was just a tad more higher in kelvin , like around 4500k to 5000k I think it would be about perfect tint for me as the 4200k is sometimes on the yellowish side for me depending on what I am looking at

kaichu dento · Dec 6, 2011

shane45_1911 said:
I really, really, REALLY wish that "neutral" meant just that - just pure white. Unfortunately, it does not.

That is exactly what it should mean and while it waits to be seen if the meaning does eventually gravitate towards it's literal translation, that's definitely what I'm hoping for as well.

The progress on emitters has come far enough that more accuracy in the usage of language will lead to less frustration and more trust on the part of the public at large when cool, neutral and warm come to have essentially the same meaning from all manufacturers, but it will take the LED makers to help drive this change.

hoongern · Dec 6, 2011

tre said:
Yes, a neutral tint has better color rendition. This is a fact. There is much documentation about color spectrum and wave lengths of neutral tint vs cool tint. This does not mean everyone likes netral better. Many still like cool tinted lights better. It seems people with more lights eventually prefer neutral.

This isn't true. (However, in the case of LEDs, it's almost always true. Perhaps this is what you meant?) If you consider daylight [sunlight], which is ~5500-6500K "neutral/cool" white - it gives very good color rendition because of its smooth and continuous spectrum.

You could have a neutral light source made up of just a few spikes in a spectrum - which would give you the tint, but not the color rendition. Basically, when it comes to color rendition, you should take into account both tint, as well as the spectrum (which tells you a lot more than a simple "xx CRI" measurement).

(Example: In the case of Cree, they have both neutral LEDs and outdoor LEDs - both have neutral tint bins, but the neutral ones have better color rendition due to the different phosphors used)

--------

As for "neutral", I dislike using the term. Everyone has different ideas on what it means, so I prefer to just say actual CCTs like "5000K" or "6000K". I'd define neutral as whatever color temperature an individual regards as "pure white", which is different for everyone.

Chrisdm · Dec 6, 2011

I began my journey down this road of high end lights because I'm a team leader for my county's search & rescue team, as well as an avid backpacker. So my most important lights are, for serious field use, not just wall hunting (although I admit to that too..

)... And after running a number of high end lights in real world use, I have come to insist any light I purchase be neutral. Not that I can't find anything in the dark with a cool tint, I have just come to appreciate how much easier it is on the eyes, when using a light as the primary vision tool for extended periods of time outside... Using cool tints outdoors renders everything this sickly unnatural hue. I feel like I'm walking around in a cheap horror movie.. Then I switch on the neutral light and, ahhhh.. Colors the way God made them. After "seeing the light" I could never buy another cool light.

kaichu dento · Dec 7, 2011

hoongern said:
As for "neutral", I dislike using the term. Everyone has different ideas on what it means, so I prefer to just say actual CCTs like "5000K" or "6000K". I'd define neutral as whatever color temperature an individual regards as "pure white", which is different for everyone.

There should be nothing to dislike about a term such as neutral, which should be nothing more than neutral. It's not the term itself that is at fault, but lack of care in it's usage by manufacturers and while I like your insistence on including CCT numbers, the public at large should be able to know immediately if their purchase would be in the warm, cool or neutral range.

Something I notice bulb manufacturers are now doing is making it evident from a distance if an LED bulb is warmer or cooler by the coloring on the package and it helps in comparing prices and outputs on devices you might actually be interested in buying to have an idea of if it even falls within the range of what you may or may not be interested in purchasing.
Once you're looking at the correct range of products, then you can pare your choice down further by examining the numbers as well if so inclined.

Neutral the preferred light?

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