I miss the controversial (but un-nasty) CAFE posts

Where have they gone? Have we gotten so saccherine-nice that we no longer feel comfortable expressing strong opinions while respecting the other person's point of view and conducting ourselves like gentlemen?

Brightnorm

Re: I miss the controversial (but un-nasty) CAFE p

maybe it has something to do with the recent uproar on CPF and that everyone is a bit more cautious these days?
those threads were mostly political or religious threads concerning internal U.S. affairs and ended nastily quite often .... it might be better this way, this is a flashlight community after all, and conflicts between members because of other things could be considered disturbing.
often, being a gentleman ends when important beliefs and opinions are touched, and things get hot quickly.
bernhard

I miss them too but I don't think such posts work here on this forum (maybe they don't really "work" anywhere). So...rather than mess up a perfectly nice technical forum...I'm trying only to post on technical topics.

I wasn't reading or posting on the CAFE forum when the blow ups occurred in the past. I experienced one this weekend. The moderator has a thankless job and I don't know the capabilities of the software. Could be that the only recourse available, to the moderator, is to freeze the thread.

I am shocked that legitimate political discourse was stopped because of one individual's behavior. Would it not have been better to cut off that individual and let the discussion continue. I believe that the individual took advantage of the fact that the thread would be frozen because of his behavior. Freezing the thread will only serve to reinforce that behavior. This is the kind of behavior seen in totalitarian states. Both socialist and fascist (left and right) states discourage dissent. Mature adults can have polite discussions even when completely polarized about the subject matter. There has always been and always will be those that don't want opposing viewpoints, about many subjects, to be heard. We can not allow those people to prevail. This country is founded on the right of the people to express themselves freely. We should always try to do so in a civil and respectful manner. America wouldn't work without our freedom of speech.
oldgrandpajack

Re: I miss the controversial (but un-nasty) CAFE p

a VERY good point, John.
bernhard

This is first and foremost a flashlight and flashlight related forum. I have yet to see or hear a flashlight with a political agenda. There are thousands of more suitable soapboxes for political fights or religious diatribe. I come to CPF for and to enjoy the flashlight centered posts.To post politically sensitive drivel in a flashlight forum would be like going to a gourmet cooking forum and starting a thread on the merits of chainsaw A versus chainsaw B.one subject has no connection with the other. I try to be open minded if at all possible, If somebody shows me a battery that has a political view and it can express it self then it might be relevent.I wandered over here from the knife forums. Knives and flashlights have a relationship in that both are tools , both can be utilized for emergency situations and both can be collected. Both can be modded/customized. Apples and oranges, both are edible, both grow on trees, both make good beverages.What relationship does politics have with flashlights?

IF 100% of our members can't behave themselves concerning political and touchy issues (showing your view while respecting the other view), I personally think political discussions should be banned completely.

"If you don't have something nice to say, don't say it at all."

Dan

For what it's worth:

This is a flashlight centered forum: CPF! No argument. Yet the CAFE is an "OFF-TOPIC" forum within The Candle Power Forums. Many of us like to be able to discuss completely unrelated issues. Many of us like being able to ask completely un-flashlight related questions. Many people are part of CPF because of the great community it is, in addition to an interest in flashlights. CPF is a great bunch of people--most of us, most of the time, anyway. What I find really very interesting and encouraging, is that I DO relate to so many of the non-flashlight related views/threads/discussions here. Someone said it the other day about the scouting thread. He said something like, "where else could you bring up scouting and have a bunch of positive reactions?"

I agree with brightnorm. It is entirely possible to discuss sensitive and controversial topics in a manner that both presents our own opinions and respects those of others. Granted it is hard to walk that line, but that's why we NEED to be able to practice it! That's why the CAFE should be here in CPF. That's why we should all try to set the example and apologize if we fail and just do better next time. If someone is really out of line then he or she should be given a warning, etc. all the usual stuff. I have been astonished at the high level of conduct here on CPF, and it has inspired me to improve my own conduct. I am in a long tedius process of breaking my own tendencies to be argumentative and obnoxious. Taking part in CPF has been one of the most helpful things I've done in years. I admire so many of you on this forum. You have earned my sincere respect.

If we get rid of any controversial or off-topic discussions here on CPF, we will be the less for it. These discussions offer an opportunity for gentlemanly (and lady-like) conduct to shine. Also, it offers us an opportunity to help each other. I for one was very moved by shankus's thread about his murdered sister. So much of the internet these days is a traffic in vice and dross. We NEED forums like CPF-THE CAFE, and we need to be able to discuss important things. Sometimes the discussion will get out of hand and tempers will flare. But I think that's a risk worth taking, provided it doesn't make too much work for the moderators. Perhaps that is what we should be discussing: how best to handle and distribute the work involved. I don't know so much about that, and the moderators have my appreciation for the work they do, but I for one very much like THE CAFE here at CPF.

logicnerd411 said: "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say it at all."

I'm certainly glad that our founding fathers didn't take that attitude or else the U.S. would still be subject to the British crown and would likely be paying taxes to them today.

Well guys, the last time that I brought up that we should have the right to express ourselves freely on the forums, Sasha accused me of "baiting" so I'm going to try to stay out of this discussion as much as I can, but...

Funny how when it's something that somebody doesn't *want* to hear, it's labeled as "baiting", "trolling" "flaming" or whatever new slang term is popular to label something with, but if it's something that somebody wants to hear, that doesn't get labeled as anything in particular and is considered to be perfectly acceptable. This country is founded by people putting forth ideas that not everybody *wanted* to hear at the time, but ideas that they needed to hear.

As an example, if not for people being free to express an unpopular viewpoint during the course of the history of this country there might still be slavery today. As I recall, abolitionism was not a very popular idea in it's day. I guess if abolition was to have came up today and people were trying to freely discuss it on the net, moderators would label them as "baiters", "flamers", and "trollers" to, just like they do with people with unpopular viewpoints today.

X-CalBR8,

Forgive me for saying this, but I think that your tone is perhaps not as facilitating of proper discussion as it could be. If you would, allow me to re-write some of it in a different tone:
[ QUOTE ]
logicnerd411 said: "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say it at all."
I'm certainly glad that our founding fathers didn't take that attitude or else the U.S. would still be subject to the British crown and would likely be paying taxes to them today.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now, how would this be instead:

logicnerd411: I agree that when we discuss things we should do so in as polite and nice a manner as possible, but I disagree that we should be banned from discussing certain topics. I feel so indebted to our national founding fathers and for all of the people who died for our rights, including the right to free speech and dissent. Wouldn't it be better to take a softer line, in light of these great sacrifices?

Or instead of
[ QUOTE ]
Funny how when it's something that somebody doesn't *want* to hear, it's labeled as "baiting", "trolling" "flaming" or whatever new slang term is popular to label something with, but if it's something that somebody wants to hear, that doesn't get labeled as anything in particular and is considered to be perfectly acceptable.

[/ QUOTE ]

why not:

I honestly feel that those of us of a certain political orientation get closer scrutiny than others. I know we may be unpopular on this board, but it can't hurt anyone for us to express our opinions, can it?

ETC.

I understand your frustration, X-cal, but one of the most important things for us to do to facilitate discussion, is to resist the urge to jump to what may be seen as accusations and soap-boxes and high-horses. Even though they may not be, the tone is ALL IMPORTANT.

Is that fair? Do you agree?

Something our founding fathers were extremely good at was discourse and debate and it's applied use to get the response they were interested in. If it was to inflame mens hearts to their cause they could do that, if it was to play down the international political ramifications of something to rally folks to their cause they could do that too.

Ben Franklin worked extremely hard to find the right words to convince the French to help out. All of the folks working had to watch their P's and Q's so that that could convince the folks locally that were still loyal to the crown (or enough of them anyway) to their side of the argument.

At that point any brash and inflammatory statements would have belittled and hurt their cause.

There are no banned subjects on CPF, but there are banned methods of expression. I don't think forcing people to think and understand what they are saying and how it will affect others is too much to ask here. If you want to scream "BUSH SUCKS" buy a bumper sticker. If you want to discuss politics or gun control with folks that might have a different stance, try to understand them so you can convert them or be converted by them depending on what you learn. Then this is the place to do it.

Jahn forbad political discussion way back when. I'm beginning to see his wisdom.

But this IS the Cafe after all!!!

I don't come to this 'room' expecting ONLY flashlight discussion.

hawkhkg11 said yesterday: "This board is heavily slanted towards the right..."

Sasha said yesterday: "He is absolutely correct. That is really no one's fault. It's just the way things happen."

I would submit that this is not "just the way things happen", I would say that very few things 'just happen' in this world, people make them happen. When non-"conservative" viewpoints are threatened with censorship because they are labeled as "baiting", "flaming" or "trolling", then of course the board will be seen as "slanted to the right" because anyone with any other viewpoint will be discouraged from further posting when they already know, in advance, what the reception will likely be for their equally valid viewpoint.

As most everyone here probably already knows, I'm neither a Democrat nor a Republican so nobody can accuse me of taking sides on this issue or anything (I'm against them both and the corporations that own them). I do, however, believe in being fair though. If "conservative" viewpoints are going to be allowed to be stated, unmolested, on the board, then all other viewpoints should be allowed to, without being labeled and/or censored.

Someone sent me an e-mail yesterday (I don't wish to name names) with this very same sentiment. I felt that it was a perfectly valid viewpoint, so I decided to post the viewpoint and take the heat for it myself.

So far as banning all political discussion on CPF, why do such a very drastic thing? It makes no sense. If a very few overly sensitive people get their feelings hurt because people don't agree with their point of view, then big deal. I would say that 99% of us here can discuss pretty well any subject without going off crying about it to some moderator later. If someone is going to be the kind of person to get their feelings hurt over politics, religion or anything else that is the least bit controversial, then they would likely find something else to get their feelings hurt over if politics were, all of a sudden, to be fully censored from the board.

The fact is that there will always be people out there that look for reasons to be offended, but if the whole world was to cater to this 1% minority, then what kind of world would this be? Well, I guess that there are a few places in California where they would be a little bit better equipped to answer that particular question than me, so I'll leave that one for one of them to answer. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Just kidding guys, no offense to our Californian members, just poking a little fun with your politics out there. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
X-CalBR8 said:
hawkhkg11 said yesterday: "This board is heavily slanted towards the right..."

Sasha said yesterday: "He is absolutely correct. That is really no one's fault. It's just the way things happen."

I would submit that this is not "just the way things happen", I would say that very few things 'just happen' in this world, people make them happen.

<font color="red">*Um... no... really... I have no control over the demographics of CPF. My "powers" aren't THAT great... regardless of what you might think.* </font>
When non-"conservative" viewpoints are threatened with censorship because they are labeled as "baiting", "flaming" or "trolling", then of course the board will be seen as "slanted to the right" because anyone with any other viewpoint will be discouraged from further posting when they already know, in advance, what the reception will likely be for their equally valid viewpoint.

<font color="red"> *Um... no. Actually what is discouraged is the flaming, baiting and trolling. The opinion is rather a moot point. The wording and attitude is what gets posters in trouble. What is it they say? "Presentation is everything!". I believe js was trying to make that point to you a few posts back. </font>

... If "conservative" viewpoints are going to be allowed to be stated, unmolested, on the board, then all other viewpoints should be allowed to, without being labeled and/or censored.

<font color="red">*And they are... when they are presented in a way that is not flaming, baiting or trolling. Believe it or not, some of this "censorship" that you continue to harp on has been commited by fellow "liberals" who even they feel the line of decency and maturity has been crossed. FWIW, the last thread that I closed was because of a post which I happened to agree with 100% but the presentation was way out of line. So you see? I really don't care what the "message" is as long as it doesn't flame, bait or troll.</font>

If a very few overly sensitive people get their feelings hurt because people don't agree with their point of view, then big deal.

<font color="red">*Then why is it that you continue to harp on this topic? You have had it explained to you many times why things are the way they are here on CPF. You are one of the very few who doesn't like it. Big deal. Shall we move on now? </font>

I would say that 99% of us here can discuss pretty well any subject without going off crying about it to some moderator later. If someone is going to be the kind of person to get their feelings hurt over politics, religion or anything else that is the least bit controversial, then they would likely find something else to get their feelings hurt over if politics were, all of a sudden, to be fully censored from the board.

<font color="red">*Politics are not going to be censored from the board... yet. However, seeing as how the majority of CPF's members seem to like the fact that mud-slinging, flaming, baiting, and trolling will not be tolerated, I guess I have to look at the minority and say... Big Deal! ... move on. </font>

The fact is that there will always be people out there that look for reasons to be offended, but if the whole world was to cater to this 1% minority, then what kind of world would this be?

<font color="red">*You just made my point for me. </font>



[/ QUOTE ]

X-CalBR8,

I'm sorry that that has been your experience here. I have had the opposite experience. I have found that it's amazing what is posted and discussed without the thread being banned or blowing up into a flame war. Check out the thread "Poll: Final Arrangements." That's not the exact title, perhaps, but close enough for you to search for it. Anyway, check it out. I posted a very Roman Catholic response in regards to that poll and it did not explode into a flame war on religion. Granted, you could say that that was a "right-wing" view point. Maybe, maybe not. If you read it, you will see that I present a VERY unpopular viewpoint, regarless of "right" or "left" and yet, I specifically got a response which said "I disagree strongly with you, but I did read and do respect your view." It's amazing really.

Again, I think the key is not get in anyone's face. For example, you said:

[ QUOTE ]
So far as banning all political discussion on CPF, why do such a very drastic thing? It makes no sense. If a very few overly sensitive people get their feelings hurt because people don't agree with their point of view, then big deal. I would say that 99% of us here can discuss pretty well any subject without going off crying about it to some moderator later.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you see that you are expressing total disdain for anyone who happens to be in this group that you've labeled "overly sensitive", saying they've gone "crying to the moderator"? I mean, what if it was your wife or sister or mother? Wouldn't you express this opinion in a different way? Why inflate things to a world-wide scale and insinuate at the outset that the moderators are specifically cultivating a right-wing group? You can't really think that, can you? Why not try the experiment of expressing an "unpopular" opinion in a mellower tone?

Please don't get me wrong! When I was in college, loud, agressive, heated debating at all hours of the day and night, was one of my FAVORITE activities. I have to very deliberately and consciously stop myself from falling back into that habit. Not too long ago, I would have agreed with you 100%. But then I fell in love with, and married a wonderful, and very sensitive woman. She has taught me that a person can have strong convictions and yet not have to rub people the wrong way all the time (that would be me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif bull in a china shop if ever there was one).

On the other hand, I think the end of your post is great. I love the tone:

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I guess that there are a few places in California where they would be a little bit better equipped to answer that particular question than me, so I'll leave that one for one of them to answer. Just kidding guys, no offense to our Californian members, just poking a little fun with your politics out there. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

To be frank, I feel somewhat out of line here, because I seem to be setting myself up as some kind of master of tone and etiquette, or something. I in no way regard myself as this, and I do not intend to play the teacher here! I am only stating my opinion because it presents itself to me so forcefully that I have taken the risk in the hopes of adding positively to the discussion.

If you think I'm wrong and out of line, please accept my apologies in advance.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm personally offended by people who are easily offended. I HATE sensitive people. I think it's really just a shadow for them to hide under their insecurities. If you can't logically argue why you don't agree with something, then perhaps you don't really know the truth as to why you believe it or not.

I'm not really offended by much of anything except the three I's (Ignorance, Indoctrination, Ideology).

I actually made that up myself. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

It doesn't seem like a minority of people that care about free speech to me. Why would this thread have even been started in the first place if not for a lot of people out there that don't like censorship of topics and ideas? Notice that it was not *me* who started this thread. I had nothing to do with it. I only commented on it.

If it has gotten to the point that most people in this country don't care about the freedom to speak their own minds in an open forum then things are much worse in the ol' U.S. of A. than I had ever imagined. At any rate, we are certainly not a 1% minority, even if we are outnumbered.

So far as why I posted about the whiners, it's because I've been lead to believe that that is why there is censorship and thread closings on the board to begin with is because people were getting their feelings hurt and bothering moderators about it and the moderators were getting tired of dealing with them. If this is not why there is censorship on the board, then I can see no excusable reason for it at all.

So far as whining to moderators, this is something that I have *NEVER* done and I don't like being accused of it. Anything that I have to say can be said publicly for all to see. I have nothing to hide. I have never sent you a private message and I have only ever sent DavidW one since I've been a member, and I've been a member almost since the beginning of CPF, because I happen to share the love of flashlights and I happen to like most of the people that I have met here and I value their opinions.

I also happen to enjoy talking politics here in the Café to, because most of the people here are very politically enlightened people when compared to the populous in general, but when there is a censorship of ideas on one side or the other, then no effective political discussion can occur because one side or the other will be apprehensive about posting their views.

Also worth noting, I did not invent the idea that non-"conservative" views were being held down by being labeled as "baiting" or "flamebait" or whatever, I clearly stated that it was an idea that someone had e-mailed to me yesterday but I felt that the view held enough merit for a public discussion of it.

X-CalBR8, I hope you're keeping links to the threads you think have been closed due to right wing censorship on the board. Perhaps some links would be illuminating.

Personally I don't know what Brightnorm was talking about in the first post. If anything the days of sweet dissagreements and scientifically detached discussions in the cafe are long over and people just want to get mad at each other.

Stateing a leftist viewpoint on something here isn't baiting/flaiming, but suggesting or implying that there is something wrong with the people who post to disagree with you certainly is.

There are those here that honeslty believe that I'm an unthinking tool of the establishment by taking all their propaganda to heart and actually believeing some of it. You'll have to put that aside and argue the points with me here rather than the fact that there is something wrong with me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

You'll also have to entertain the notion that I'm not an unthinking tool and that I might know exactly what I'm doing...

js: I have never taken offense to one of your post and I don't take offense to this one now. I'm even a little surprised that you would think that I would be offended by it. In fact, it takes a lot to offend me. If you have read very many of my post you will see that I hardly ever get offended by anyone no matter how much I disagree with their ideologies.

I do have to say that I am very offended by censorship of thoughts and ideas though, for many many reasons. Probably one of the most offensive things about censorship is that it gives far too much power into the hands of those that have their fingers on the censor button, metaphorically speaking. When a group of people have the power given to them to decide what is "appropriate speech" and what is "inappropriate speech", it will always lead to an oppression of thoughts and ideas and it will always lead to resentments. Again, just look at my abolitionist example from earlier. They called them every name in the book and put every negative label on them for trying to get an unpopular idea across to.

I remember when CPF was new that there was never a closed thread (at least that I ever saw), there was never any talk of censorship or anything like it and the whole board didn't go up in chaos like some seem to think that it would now if it wasn't censored. Most of us handled ourselves as adult and the 1% that didn't were mostly ignored. There was not wild chaos on the board then and I don't believe that there would be today if people were allowed to speak freely. I know that the board has grown a lot since those days, but I still don't think that there would be a significant problem if it was left uncensored.

So far as people that are easily offended goes, I have to admit that I find myself agreeing more with hawkhkg11 on that one. People that are easily offended are the bane of our entire political system. It is because of the 1% of the people out there that get offended at everything that we have most of the worst and most oppressive laws that we have on the books and this 1% are also why the U.S. has the richest lawyers in the world to. It is almost the American motto these days of 'if you are offended by something, take them to court'. This sort of thing has to be ended at some point or else you will live in fear of being sued each and every time you go out your door, because no matter how good and kind you are to others, you *will always* offend people. It's just a fact of life.