UDR Dominator, a new throw king?

funder

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For some time, Surefire was considered to be "obsolete" in output by some flashaholics. Personally, I believe they never give up in pushing the light into higher output level. Their effort has been shown in recent lights such as P2X, M3LT and UB3T. Output is usually measured by the luminous flux (lumens), but the luminous intensity (candelas) is important as well. The later one is the measure of the throw which can be easily transformed into the illuminance (luxs) in a given distance ( intensity/d^2).

The theoretical limit of the throw (in candela) can be calculated by the given formula (refer the silides: http://www.slideshare.net/canfang/led-optics-in-flashlight:
Max intensity = luminance of light source x effective projective area x (refractive index of target/ refractive index of light source)^2.
For example, the max luminance of Cree XML is about: 1000/pi/(2e-3)^2 ~= 8.0e7 nits; The refractive index of the primary lens (dome) is about 1.5. A light with 50mm reflector or optics equipped with XML, it throw is bounded from above by:
8.0e7 x pi x (0.025)^2 x 1/2.25 ~=70000cds.
Some of such lights, such as UB3t, Thrunite catapult, have measured luminous intensity of 40000~50000cd, which is already approaching their theoretical limits.

Surefire new dominator UDR is first introduced in 2011 shotshow, at that time, it was claimed to has 2000lumens and 40,000cds. I am very surprised to read that in 2012 catalog the luminous intensity has been changed to 165,000cds, that's more than 4 times! Although we could assume that in 2011 catalog the number is underrate, the difference is still too large to be understandable.

So, what happens?

Let's compare U3BT and UDR, the later has a 5times of throw, but the bezel is just about 1cm larger in diameter. We could estimate the effective diameter of its reflector is 60mm,( 60/50)^2 = 1.44, which indicates the increase of the projective area contribute 44% in the increase of the throw.

In 2011 SS, the prototype UDR is equipped with a luminus CST90, which has a maximum luminous flux of 2700 lumens. Considering it has a larger die area (9mm^2 vs 4mm^2), its luminance is just slightly (about 20%) larger than Cree XML. So CST 90 cannot make the claimed throw.

Now let's go to the third term of the throw formula: refractive index. If the emitter is in the air instead of a dome lens, this term (usually much less than 1) can be removed and we can have a large increase in throw. We cannot remove the lens by ourselves because this will damage the emitter. Instead, we can choose the LED without lens, thus the Luminus CBT90 would be a perfect choice for the throw king. However, the dome lens works as a matching media in the LED thus the LED without lens will lose some luminance flux. In the official website, CBT90 only marked as 1800 lumens, which about 1/3 less than the CST90. And 1800lumens is not matching the claimed 2000 lumens of UDR.
Fortunately, it seems that luminus has some breakthrough in making high Binned CBT90 recently, in a very recent brief: http://www.luminus.com/products/PDB-001948_CBT-90_ProdBrief.pdf , they claimed over 2500 lumens. This emitter has a nearly same virtual area of XML (because of the magnification effect of dome lens in XML), but has a 2.5 times flux!

As a conclusion, we can say surefire managed to get some very high powered (50watts), very limited high binned CBT90 from Luminus and equip UDR with them. I believe these LEDs will continue to be very limited in availability thus it is difficult for the competitors to do so.

A new throw king? Let's wait and see.
 

funder

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A simulation, 2500 lumens CBT90 with 60mm reflector gives 225,000 cds:
CBT_60mm.jpg


2011 Shotshow prototype UDR, shown to be CST90, which has more luminous flux, but much less throw:
dsc0698e.jpg
 
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jh333233

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A simulation, 2500 lumens CBT90 with 60mm reflector gives 225,000 cds:


2011 Shotshow prototype UDR, shown to be CST90, which has more luminous flux, but much less throw:

What was that program?
Btw, The parabola of the reflector could affect beam profile, did you count that in?
 

TEEJ

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For calibration purposes...

Can you run the same simulation on an Olight SR90 with and without a dome?

The measured output (1m) was ~ 112,000 stock and 203,000 after dedoming.

What does the program predict? :huh:
 

funder

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For calibration purposes...

Can you run the same simulation on an Olight SR90 with and without a dome?

The measured output (1m) was ~ 112,000 stock and 203,000 after dedoming.

What does the program predict? :huh:

I don't know how much loss in the luminous flux (lumens) after you de dome the emitter.
OK I can assume it is 0 loss, but I need to know the diameter and depth of the reflector.
 

TEEJ

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I don't have that set of measurements handy now...but I'll see if I can scrounge them up.

The light's in the search and rescue truck at the moment...so I won't be able to measure it directly tonight.

If anyone knows the dimensions, feel free to donate them.

:D
 

BLUE LED

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I don't know how much loss in the luminous flux (lumens) after you de dome the emitter.
OK I can assume it is 0 loss, but I need to know the diameter and depth of the reflector.

Stock Olight SR90 1370 lumens. You should allow 301 lumens light loss after removing the dome. I look forward to the results.
 

BLUE LED

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You lose around 22% of lumens when you remove the dome off the SST-90.
 

TEEJ

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You lose around 22% of lumens when you remove the dome off the SST-90.

Where did that # come from?

I've heard estimates bandied about, bit no basis for them...just everyone essentially repeating "15-20% Loss", with no original source for it...every one just says "That's what they heard". THIS is the first one stating "Around 22%", so, hopefully, being as that's quite specific...there must be a source for it?

I saw mentions in old threads about theorizing loss...but that the loss would be from DAMAGE to the LED form the process, not from removing the primary optic in of itself, etc.



SOMEONE must have measured the loss the FIRST time I would think...and, I would think that unless it was a mathematical result, if it were from damage...the damage would vary?



Can we go back see see who was the FIRST to say tenth person who de-domed an SR90, and what THEY reported?

:D
 
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BLUE LED

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BigC tested the lumens lost from Dedomed SST-90, SST-50 and XM-L. He reported back between 30-40% loss in lumens. This was higher than I would have expected, therefore I asked a few scientists who agreed to help. The results varied, but it was roughly 22%.
 

TEEJ

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BigC tested the lumens lost from Dedomed SST-90, SST-50 and XM-L. He reported back between 30-40% loss in lumens. This was higher than I would have expected, therefore I asked a few scientists who agreed to help. The results varied, but it was roughly 22%.


BUT:


Great experiment, Saabluster.

I have done some experiment on SST-90 lately, intended to make a SST-90 thrower. I've knocked off 2-3 SST-90 dooms & noticed that
there's no soft silicon residue under the lens as seen in XRE. The SST-90 has a layer of optical something over the die, not in touch with the doom. Therefore, there's no change of die-air boundary when removing the doom here & thus no 30% light loss as seen in Cre XRE de-doom.

What this tells me is that the doom on SST-90 is merely a pre-collinmator sending more lights forward, but it increased the apparent died size 2-3x
at the same time. I thought that the doom may be reducing the throw on SST-90 because with reflector because.


1. More light is sent forward & escape the reflector. (Good for aspehrical but bad for reflector)
2. Increased apparent die size reduce light intensity & thus reduce throw.
Not good for either reflector or aspherical.

It's still a lot of light even with the doom, I have some beam shots against Mag85 here (SSR-90 with Doom):
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=238232
But without the doom, it became a diffrent animal!

I did the De-doom SST-90 mod & was shocked how strong the throw become, it's got pretty good beam with mag stock smooth reflector, with 1/2 size hot spot now but 2x as bright! The spill is reduced vs. doomed one.

Which implies that these LEDs are not all the same, and don't all suffer the same losses...hence the RANGE.

:D
 

BLUE LED

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That is true, not all LED's are created equally. There will always be a range.

I remember discussing this with Rob at a CPF meet in early 2008. I believe the XR-E Q5 was all the rage then, with countless threads about Dereelight DBS being the king of throw. Do you have the dimensions of the SR90 reflector.
 

TEEJ

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That is true, not all LED's are created equally. There will always be a range.

I remember discussing this with Rob at a CPF meet in early 2008. I believe the XR-E Q5 was all the rage then, with countless threads about Dereelight DBS being the king of throw. Do you have the dimensions of the SR90 reflector.

Yeah, the stated/measured XRE losses there were plenty of in that range...but none for the SST90, at least that I could find. Saablaster seemed to be #1 or so for de-doming the SST90 for example, but reported no losses for doing it.

SR90 Reflector - IIRC it was 4" in diameter?

The light's in the search and rescue truck right now...so I can't get to it from here...or I'd just measure it...very frustrating.

:D
 
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rickypanecatyl

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Thanks for the thread funder - some great info there though I must confess my brain wasn't able to follow all of it.

As to lumens loss on the SST90 I was messing around with my varapower2000 when Kevin first started making them. BigC was testing all sorts of configurations at the time and the OTF lumens numbers for the large copper heat sinked, mag deeper rebel reflector'd varapower were about 2,100 lumens at 1 min w 40,000 lux and dedomed 1,500 lumens w/80,000 lux.

I'm curious if your formula for theoritcal maximum throw works for aspherics? How do they fit it?

On a practical level I like more throw than most for my EDC lights, and a narrower beam, though not as narrow as say a DBS XRE aspheric. I wanted to ask using aspherics is there a possiblity of having a light the size of a Deree DBS (I think it has a 1.8" reflector?) that could put 800 lumens out the front, with a lux @ 1 m of 40,000? I believe the DBS w/XML has a lux of 25,000. I'm using the +/- 1.8" diameter head as an example as that's the largest light I'll carry around w/me on a regular basis, and I want as much throw as possible from a package that size!
 

TEEJ

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Thanks for the thread funder - some great info there though I must confess my brain wasn't able to follow all of it.

As to lumens loss on the SST90 I was messing around with my varapower2000 when Kevin first started making them. BigC was testing all sorts of configurations at the time and the OTF lumens numbers for the large copper heat sinked, mag deeper rebel reflector'd varapower were about 2,100 lumens at 1 min w 40,000 lux and dedomed 1,500 lumens w/80,000 lux.

I'm curious if your formula for theoritcal maximum throw works for aspherics? How do they fit it?

On a practical level I like more throw than most for my EDC lights, and a narrower beam, though not as narrow as say a DBS XRE aspheric. I wanted to ask using aspherics is there a possiblity of having a light the size of a Deree DBS (I think it has a 1.8" reflector?) that could put 800 lumens out the front, with a lux @ 1 m of 40,000? I believe the DBS w/XML has a lux of 25,000. I'm using the +/- 1.8" diameter head as an example as that's the largest light I'll carry around w/me on a regular basis, and I want as much throw as possible from a package that size!

The DEFT edc LR + for example is pocket sized, and puts out ~72,000 lux at 1 Meter.
 

TEEJ

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It would be very nice to see Surefire get back into the flashlight game...especially if they can sell a beast like that for a reasonable price. Historically, they charge 2 - 4 x as much for 1/2 - 1/4 x the power of the competition...

...so doubling what the competition had would leapfrog them ahead in performance for a change....and God only knows what THAT would do to the prices.

:devil:
 

tab665

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does anyone know of a light that uses the cbt90? tried to serch online but the only thing ive really found are data sheets on the LED.
 
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