The ROTOR® - E-series compatible 18650 body

[precisionworks]

We just heard from the CNC shop & have the pricing on the Ti-6-4 body. It's $224.00 USD plus shipping. USA shipping by the U S Post Office is $6.00, International is $17.00.

No orders are being taken at this time as this is not a sales thread but we do need to have an idea of the level of interest. No metal has yet been cut & we will wait to see how many people commit to a body before ordering material costing $350/meter

PEU & I are both happy to see a price this low. The tube has to be rotated 15 times to cut the 15 flats & this is not a quick process. We aren't the judge but you are. What are your thoughts?

[precisionworks]

WOW ... as soon as the price was listed there was a huge lack of response

When comparing The ROTOR to other custom titanium bodies the price seems about right. Not inexpensive because of the large amount of machine time involved but not too pricey either. PEU & I would love to order a small production run from the shop but we need to know that some of these bodies will go to a good home.

Or is there something about this design that makes it unattractive or not a good value?

[Obijuan Kenobe]

I would commit to taking one for sure even if done tomorrow. I'll probably think hard about two if I have a couple weeks and an in the hand photo to wet my whistle.

obi

[precisionworks]

Obi,

Thank you for your support. I want at least one for my collection & another for my son. Yours makes three. PEU will likely want one or two for himself. We are now talking with the shop about a VERY small run, that being the number of bodies that they can machine from 1m of material. Will post back if this is in any way possible. I do believe that once people see the body "in the flesh" there will be much more interest.

I like the looks of this thing a lot... quite reminiscent of either a Wankel, or even the cam of a regular ICE (hence, "The ROTOR" I suppose). Either way, it's very different.

If I'm understanding the reason for the flats pattern... is it that no two flats are ever lined up in order to ensure grip no matter how the light is rotationally oriented in the hand?

Thank you for your kind words

Rotating the flats (actually indexing each flat) serves two purposes. Grip is greatly enhanced & the design looks unlike any other. PEU gets all the credit for the rotation/indexing.

[Obijuan Kenobe]

Then by all means at least one for me. If there is any need for me to take two to tip the scales, I'll take two for the record now.

obi

[precisionworks]

Then by all means at least one for me. If there is any need for me to take two to tip the scales, I'll take two for the record now.

obi

Thank you very much.

[S1LVA]

I want one!

S1LVA

NVM, Oops! I thought it had an integrated tail cap.

[precisionworks]

I want one!

S1LVA

NVM, Oops! I thought it had an integrated tail cap.

How many more people would like to see a body that would accept a McClickie?

[Obijuan Kenobe]

Yeah, on both of mine that would be GREAT. I know that significantly changes the design in terms of machining challenges. But in the end, this or a matching tail with a McClicky is really necessary for this to be a complete project. Either of these would certainly guarantee interest to increase.

obi

[precisionworks]

Yeah, on both of mine that would be GREAT. I know that significantly changes the design in terms of machining challenges. But in the end, this or a matching tail with a McClicky is really necessary for this to be a complete project. Either of these would certainly guarantee interest to increase.

obi

I really do appreciate your thoughts.

I just sent a text to PEU asking for a new quote with integrated tail. No idea how much that will change the price but will post back as soon as I know something.

[notrefined]

Well, for me,the price is a bit much given that 1) I'd actually prefer a simpler design (so paying a premium for more intricate machine work isn't a plus), and 2) what I really want is a tailcap that functions like or will accept the internals from a Z52, which is something that may never happen. I may well still buy one, or if not, kick myself for not doing so, but I'm not over the top gung-ho for the project at this stage. An integrated clickie would turn it from a maybe to a probable no for me, though. (I just love my E2 that you bored for me, what I really want is that design in titanium, maybe with a Sundrop head)

[precisionworks]

Well, for me,the price is a bit much given that 1) I'd actually prefer a simpler design (so paying a premium for more intricate machine work isn't a plus), and 2) what I really want is a tailcap that functions like or will accept the internals from a Z52, which is something that may never happen. I may well still buy one, or if not, kick myself for not doing so, but I'm not over the top gung-ho for the project at this stage. An integrated clickie would turn it from a maybe to a probable no for me, though. (I just love my E2 that you bored for me, what I really want is that design in titanium, maybe with a Sundrop head)

I appreciate your honesty & candor. As co-developer on this project it is super difficult to be objective or remain detached. Without feedback like yours we have little direction.

On the Z52 I hate to say this but that is impossible. Not from a mechanical or design perspective but rather because it is a clear patent infringement on one of Surefire's most well known features - the LOTC (lock out tail cap). Look at the list of manufacturers not named in the ongoing lawsuit & one is notable - Elzetta. They went to great lengths not to incorporate a LOTC for just that reason. The McClickie is certainly the best designed switch on the market & has legendary durability. The FETtie is the high amp king. A design that incorporates those totally avoids the patent issues & gives the owner a choice between two excellent switches.

Pablo sent the blueprints to me & I'll email them to the three best shops I work with for small run & prototype work. One of my metals suppliers phoned yesterday with a great price on Ti-6-4 in 1.125" (28.6mm). The lower material cost will help offset the higher machine shop rate in the USA - we don't want the price to be any more than it currently is.

[easilyled]

If I may also offer some feedback, there are a few reasons why I would be hesitant to order one of these bodies:-

1) Like "notrefined", I feel that the patterning is a little complex for my personal stylistic tastes nonwithstanding the skill to produce it or the originality of the design.

2) These days, I prefer to have all the parts produced by the same designer, even in a lego system.

3) With the advent of XM-Ls, the smaller diameter of the E-series heads limits the selection of certain higher-current drivers and also the degree of heat-sinking possible. A C-series body might allow more flexibility in this respect and would not require an adapter to accommodate the 18650.

[Obijuan Kenobe]

I guess I see your point with regard to some drivers, Easilyled. (Oh for the return of the mighty FluPIC.) However, since you have a TBSB, I am not sure what you would want with this anyway.

For those of us with a great E series collection, but no TBSB, this is a great project.

Not everyone wants an E series split body 18650 tube. But that's what this project is about, and has been from the start.

I don't own a single thing in C series size. I don't want to carry around that bulk. I use exclusively single cell E series customs. This part would fit ideally into my collection.

If this run changes to a C series piece...you will forced (I am a jedi) to sell your TBSB to me. You have been warned.

obi

[precisionworks]

Easilyled,

Thank you for you feedback. Let me comment with colored text below:

If I may also offer some feedback, there are a few reasons why I would be hesitant to order one of these bodies:-

1) Like "notrefined", I feel that the patterning is a little complex for my personal stylistic tastes nonwithstanding the skill to produce it or the originality of the design.

I understand exactly what you mean. Our best guess is that 40% will love it, 40% will hate it & 20% wouldn't buy it even if the price was $1 USD

2) These days, I prefer to have all the parts produced by the same designer, even in a lego system.

That was my thought early on & this was discussed with PEU. He has vastly more experience in marketing & suggested that we start with the body, measure the response, then bring out a head and/or tail later. The head & tail are still distinct possibilities at some point in the future ... if we can get the body into production.

3) With the advent of XM-Ls, the smaller diameter of the E-series heads limits the selection of certain higher-current drivers and also the degree of heat-sinking possible. A C-series body might allow more flexibility in this respect and would not require an adapter to accommodate the 18650.

Before ever discussing this with PEU the original idea was an 18650 titanium C-body. Problem is that quite a few are already available. Not sure that market is saturated but there are a number of custom C-bodies to choose from. IMO the E-series is experiencing a resurgence of interest. Custom heads & custom towers are available from Steve Ku, TNVC, Norcimbus & others. It made sense to start with the E-body & go from there.

I guess I see your point with regard to some drivers, Easilyled. (Oh for the return of the mighty FluPIC.) However, since you have a TBSB, I am not sure what you would want with this anyway.

For those of us with a great E series collection, but no TBSB, this is a great project.

Not everyone wants an E series split body 18650 tube. But that's what this project is about, and has been from the start.

I don't own a single thing in C series size. I don't want to carry around that bulk. I use exclusively single cell E series customs. This part would fit ideally into my collection.

If this run changes to a C series piece...you will forced (I am a jedi) to sell your TBSB to me. You have been warned.

obi

+1 Obi.

That really summarizes how we feel & why we are offering this product.

[dbleznak]

Put me down for 1 Ti and 1 HA!!!!

[Mattaus]

2) These days, I prefer to have all the parts produced by the same designer, even in a lego system.

That was my thought early on & this was discussed with PEU. He has vastly more experience in marketing & suggested that we start with the body, measure the response, then bring out a head and/or tail later. The head & tail are still distinct possibilities at some point in the future ... if we can get the body into production.

Just in regards to this statement it might be worth thinking about the possible design of a head and tail even at this early stage. The reason being is from an aesthetic point of view, with the body being so 'busy' it might be hard to design something that would even visually look right on that body....or at least looks like it belongs. You want the sum of the parts looking better than, or at least equal to, individual pieces.

This all said and done I have given zero thought as to what a matching head and tail could even possibly look like so it might pretty easy to do!

I'm sure they'll sell like hot cakes regardless.

Just my 2c.

[notrefined]

A comment and a question:

1) Based on the renderings, I think a McGizmo Sundrop head would look absolutely stunning on this body A Haiku would probably be awesome as well

2) The mcclicky fits in a Z52 like it was made for it Do Z52 internals work in Aleph tailcaps? Not all Z52s were LOTCs, after all.

edited to add: With regard to wanting all components from the same maker, agreed in general; however, knowing Barry's affinity for McGizmo creations, I do trust that he will take great care to insure that his parts are 100% interchangeable with both surefire and McGizmo e-series lines. And while anyone can miss a step here or there, I don't know of any modder/manufacturer as meticulous as Barry when it comes to planning & forethought.

[Obijuan Kenobe]

Seems to me designing a tail for this is pretty straight forward.

You have this beautiful design in the rings PEU offset on the body. The exact same shape, but slightly enlarged in a ring around the top edge of a tail standing tail...should work just fine. You could even imagine a slight upturned ring to give it a little extra sting, or somewhere in the middle of the tail piece more like anti roll fins.

I think without continuity between this unique body motif and the tail...you might as well just make a generic E series tail as a separate run. In this case, you should do something no one else has done...like a semi round or elliptical shaped tail, maybe with indentations for anti roll effect. Wait, that might be terrible difficult to machine.

Well, anyway...I'll shut up now.

obi

[BENKING]

Well, put me down for a Ti body as well. Just read the forum today, I really like the ROTOR design and can't wait to see what you guys come up with next for it. I don't have a custom designed flashlight yet so this will be my first.

[precisionworks]

Put me down for 1 Ti and 1 HA!!!!

Thanks Dan, it really helps to have potential customers with your level of interest.

... it might be worth thinking about the possible design of a head and tail even at this early stage ...

Discussions are ongoing with a number of designers. Nothing yet is finalized but any updates will be posted here.

This all said and done I have given zero thought as to what a matching head and tail could even possibly look like so it might pretty easy to do!

The head is deceptively simple looking & surprisingly complex to design & machine. Pull apart a V10R or a Haiku head & you'll find lot of small details that have to be compatible. IMO the head design may take longer than the body.

A comment and a question:

1) Based on the renderings, I think a McGizmo SunDrop head would look absolutely stunning on this body A Haiku would probably be awesome as well.

Totally agree on the McG heads. I need to write Don & find out if he can mod the SunDrop or Haiku driver for the 3.5v-4.0v typical of the 18650. His heads are designed for either 3.0v or 6.0v nominal.

2) The mcclicky fits in a Z52 like it was made for it Do Z52 internals work in Aleph tailcaps? Not all Z52s were LOTCs, after all.

Perhaps someone will clarify this as I don't have the answer.

edited to add: With regard to wanting all components from the same maker, agreed in general; however, knowing Barry's affinity for McGizmo creations, I do trust that he will take great care to insure that his parts are 100% interchangeable with both surefire and McGizmo e-series lines.

Exactly. E-series compatibility is the basis for the ROTOR concept.

And while anyone can miss a step here or there, I don't know of any modder/manufacturer as meticulous as Barry when it comes to planning & forethought.

Thank you

Seems to me designing a tail for this is pretty straight forward.

You have this beautiful design in the rings PEU offset on the body. The exact same shape, but slightly enlarged in a ring around the top edge of a tail standing tail...should work just fine. You could even imagine a slight upturned ring to give it a little extra sting, or somewhere in the middle of the tail piece more like anti roll fins.

I think without continuity between this unique body motif and the tail...you might as well just make a generic E series tail as a separate run. In this case, you should do something no one else has done...like a semi round or elliptical shaped tail, maybe with indentations for anti roll effect. Wait, that might be terrible difficult to machine.

Well, anyway...I'll shut up now.

obi

Obi, the tail should be the easiest of the three parts to design & manufacture, especially when designing it around the McClickie. Once a head design if finalized the matching tail should be not too difficult.

Well, put me down for a Ti body as well. Just read the forum today, I really like the ROTOR design and can't wait to see what you guys come up with next for it. I don't have a custom designed flashlight yet so this will be my first.

Cut up your credit card & lock the PayPal account, there is no return once this step is taken

Since you live in the area you may get to test a prototype ... as soon as a shop is found to run them.

[nfetterly]

I made a mistake and subscribed to weekly notification on this thread.

Sign me up for a Ti body. Also very very interested in a Al HAIII body.

Tailcap integrated or coming shortly would be a huge plus - particularly if it had a lanyard attachment (my preference) - not too many Ti tailcaps around.

[easilyled]

I hope my original feedback wasn't construed as being too negative. It was intended to be constructive.
I'm delighted to see that there is considerable interest in this exciting project and wish peu and precisionworks all the best for success.

[precisionworks]

I hope my original feedback wasn't construed as being too negative. It was intended to be constructive.
I'm delighted to see that there is considerable interest in this exciting project and wish peu and precisionworks all the best for success.

We appreciate your honest input & did not think it negative at all. We were concerned when the price was posted & there was deafening silence ... that was hard to figure out. For whatever reason this thread is doing lots better here than in the first location.

Please keep your ideas coming. We appreciate all the assistance that the members can provide.

[precisionworks]

I made a mistake and subscribed to weekly notification on this thread.

Sign me up for a Ti body. Also very very interested in a Al HAIII body.

Tailcap integrated or coming shortly would be a huge plus - particularly if it had a lanyard attachment (my preference) - not too many Ti tailcaps around.

Thanks for those comments nfetterly & for your interest in one Ti & one HAIII. On the tail do you prefer a one piece tube with integral tail or a separate tailcap?

EDIT @ 1509 on 3/12 - Just emailed the blueprints to the three "top shops" that always provide the best titanium machining quotes. Requested pricing on 12/25/50 quantities ... but will be happy to get a decent price on 12 at this time.

[precisionworks]

My fingers are sore & bloody from sending out so many RFQ's (request for quotes)

Got a great price from a superb shop ... with delivery before 2013

Got almost as good a price from another shop with 60 day delivery & possibly a little longer. Sent a RFQ to a long time shop that I've never used but the owner is well respected.

Sent another to a shop about an hour away that used to run only prehistoric equipment. In the last couple of years they discovered computer controls, CMM (coordinate measuring machine), ISO certification, all the right things. Hope to hear back from everyone before the end of the week & see how these shops look.

Almost forgot, placed a RFQ on MFG.com, the web based machining & manufacturing site. Interested to see what shakes out.

Pulled the trigger (should I say pulled out the credit card) & bought 12' (3.66m) of 1.125" Ti-6-4 round bar. Good price, quite a bit less than the $2,000 USD that McMaster-Carr wanted. Even so it left a mark in the wallet. Bottom line is that the material is on the way & maybe a shop will soon be found.

Otherwise I'm set to make a lifetime supply of titanium paper weights

[BENKING]

So that's why the titanium lights are so much more expensive then aluminum.

[easilyled]

So that's why the titanium lights are so much more expensive then aluminum.

Cost of bar stock is one of the reasons. Actual machine time and wear and tear on the tools are others.

[precisionworks]

Cost of bar stock is one of the reasons. Actual machine time and wear and tear on the tools are others.

Easilyled,

Almost no one other than a machinist factors tooling wear & cost into a titanium light ... sounds to me like you have some machine experience. Tool wear on Grade 2 (commercially pure) titanium is far less than Grade 5 (Ti-6Al-4V) but Grade 2 has far less strength - aluminum alloy 6061 is 90% as strong in ultimate tensile strength as Grade 2. Grade 5 is 276% stronger than Grade 2 (source data from ASM Material Data Sheets).

[Obijuan Kenobe]

Well, I am no machinist, but I could have told you that as well. You can also learn an awful lot of useful machining 'theory' on CPF if you are paying attention. (I have done some machining of Al and delrin for making small parts for microscopes and such equipment...but always was helped by a machinist )



obi