The Haiku: why I personally feel the 3S lights have surpassed the PD lights

[kaichu dento]

kaichu dento,

Great post! Thanks for your thoughts! I myself always lean towards "less is more" and so was initially against even three levels, but given my recent experience and how much I like 3, I'm now wondering if I wouldn't go for 4 if the LED was bright enough. Eh. No telling. I'd have to experience it. Right now, I'm very happy with 3. And the low is low enough for my uses, but you're not the first person to mention wanting a lower low.

LOL. It's the "less is more" thought that makes me prefer a light that I can control to only project the amount of light I need, rather than always opting for the "turn night into day" approach.

In my mind it's much the same as I think of an accelerator on a motorized vehicle - yes I want a lot of power, but I want the final say in how much power at a given time! Definitely no interest in 500hp with an on/off switch in place of the gas pedal!

[fyrstormer]

You mean you don't want a Dodge Viper? What kind of man are you??

[kaichu dento]

You mean you don't want a Dodge Viper? What kind of man are you??

The non-competitive type - but thinking of the Viper, I'm more likely to get my thrills on a snowmachine in the springtime out on the river!

[nbp]

Quickly on the idea of a titanium rear end with H3 vial activating a clickie switch within or as part of the switch itself. I did and have thought about this as well but I am not willing to add complexity and potential failure points for what is ultimately a cosmetic and not functional reason.

Understood. That is in keeping with your general design MO as I see it.

If you ever happen to whip up a proto....

[js]

So, I've been thinking . . . and have also been experiencing some things, and I want to post about them.

First, personally--and I would guess that most people feel this way--I very much like it that the 3S turns back on at the same level it was turned off in. If you need it to start back up in low the next time, then just set it to low before you turn it off. Right? I mean, saying that you "don't know" what level it will turn on in isn't quite true. You do know. It will start up in the level you left it in last.

As for 3S vs. PD, the more I use the 3S w/ McClickie pack, the more I tend to use momentary, even for fairly long on times. I mean, why not? It just so darned easy to hold momentary on! I am loving it! And it's just the ultimate in smooth, easy, and yet accurate activation. This has been quite a contrast to some of the issues I've had with the PD momentary action. I just posted to two threads about these issues. I still love the PD, but I really dislike the action when it has its various "issues" and I dislike what the Lee spring (or cutting down the stock spring) does to the action.

It's easy to overlook how excellent the action of the McClickie pak is because clickies are so much more common, less exotic, and less "rugged" than the PD action. But nonetheless, the McClickie pak action is excellent. Different, to be sure, but no less excellent than the PD action. And a whole helluva lot easier to hold on momentary. And easier to latch to constant on. And reliably so. No strange clicking or buckling. No need to wrap tape around things. Etc. I'm loving it more and more.

[easilyled]

It seems that although it is is uncommon for McClickys to fail, it has happened to others apart from me.

In this thread McGizmo said in post #3 that he estimates the number of faulty ones to be 2-3% and there was some more information here

I'm wondering whether there have ever been any recorded failures in the Kilroy mechanism?

[js]

Thanks for the info, easilyled. What I think is just as important a number to have is the failure rate after the 2-3 percent infant mortality failures. I wonder if Don can speak as to what he thinks that number is.

As for kilroy, it's clearly a very high quality spring. And it's clearly dead-simple and straightforward. I will let Don speak as to its reliability and/or number of recorded failures, but I can tell you that the tip of mine, where it contacts the piston top, is significantly worn down. Certainly got a lot more life left in it, but definitely worn down. Maybe 1/4 of the way through? Hard to say. Of course, I've used the heck out of mine for very nearly four years now. Again, I will let Don speak as to how long he thinks it would take to wear the kilroy down to the point where it would be a concern.

In any case, I have already chaulked up the more reliable switching mechanism on the PD side of the column as a "pro" and arguably less reliable switch on the C side of the column as a "con".

And, I mean even if the kilroy DID fail, high level would be unaffected. And, on the LunaSol, the high and low are two totally separate boards, giving even greater reliability through redundancy. And this is all very nice!

But, if it comes to failures and personal experience, I had to send my Ti-PD-S back to Don to have the GDx2 converter replaced right after I got it because it was defective. And I haven't had to send back my Haiku. If you're board fails then the switch is irrelevant.

But, really, BOTH PD and 3S "C" lights are quite reliable. I own both and I have a very high level of confidence in both.

[easilyled]

No problem js. Its just my perception that this thread has not really demonstrated any significant superiority in the 3S McClicky lights over the PD lights. There seems to be quite a balanced series of pros and cons on both sides.

I understand your enthusiasm for the 3S McClickie generation of lights and they are undoubtedly great lights as I can testify despite my personal preference veering towards the PD lights.

Bottom line is simply that Don makes great lights and whatever he puts his mind and his hands to turns out to be top notch.

[arewethereyetdad]

No problem js. Its just my perception that this thread has not really demontrated any significant superiority in the 3S McClicky lights over the PD lights. There seems to be quite a balanced series of pros and cons on both sides.

I understand your enthusiasm for the 3S McClickie generation of lights and they are undoubtedly great lights as I can testify despite my personal preference veering towards the PD lights.

Bottom line is simply that Don makes great lights and whatever he puts his mind and his hands to turns out to be top notch.

I would echo every point made in this post, Daniel. I, too, prefer the PD series, if asked to choose. That's why my McGizmos are mostly PD variety. But you're absolutely right: Don has never made a bad light and he remains, to this day, the King of EDC.

[McGizmo]

..........

And, I mean even if the kilroy DID fail, high level would be unaffected. ......

In the case of the PD's, depending on the nature of "failure" of the Kilroy, high level could certainly be effected. Kilroy is the ground path to the converter and does carry the current to the converter. The contact ring is nothing more than a signal path which when connected to (-) tells the converter to switch to the high output level. When Wayne and I came up with the mother/ daughter board combination for the LunaSol lights I was pleased that now the Kilroy was responsible for the ground path for the 3 mm LED circuit and the contact ring responsible for providing power to the high power LED converter.

The first production run of McClickie switches did have a small percentage which were not properly manufactured with a percentage of these faulty in performance. The factory identified the problem and corrected it so that further runs of the switches did not have this issue. I am not familiar with a single catastrophic failure of a switch in the field where someone was unable to get light when they needed it. That's not to say it hasn't happened but I haven't heard of it.

I feel most fortunate that throughout my history in designing and modifying lights early on and then building them from scratch later that there have not been any designs or assemblies that were faulty in nature or prone to failure. I suppose I can take credit for the mechanical aspects and external power and switching paths as integrated into the lights but the heart and soul of the lights being in the converters, it is Wayne and others who designed and manufactured the converters who get the credit for their reliability and service.

There have been atypical and isolated issues with every design I have worked with and most often with the converter but also most often with the problem showing up right off the bat. Unfortunately not always in my hands but sometimes in yours. It seems that the combination of solid state circuitry with simple and straight forward mechanical switching and electrical paths can generate a high success and confidence level.

Whether identified or not, there is always a reason for a failure and a likelihood for similar failures in other units based on that reason. If the reason is a flaw in design then that flaw needs to be addressed. If the flaw is a faulty component, electrical or mechanical, and not typical across the population then the solution is to replace the faulty component and carry on. I may be guilty of selective memory but I believe the latter case is one I have had to deal with on occasion but not often, fortunately.

There is wear and tear and ultimately a need for replacement of normal wear items. These days it seems that with many if not most things we buy, a failure of a normal wear component is resolved by replacing the entire device itself, especially if it is an electronic device. But this is also true of mechanical devices and seemingly rampant in most consumer goods. But my intent and hope is that my designs of these lights will allow for repair and rebuilding of them for as long as the user sees value and merit in doing so. On this note, I believe the 3S McClickie lights have an edge on the PD lights.

There is another thread on what's in store in the future from McGizmo and my guess may not be any better than yours but I do know that I am always trying to come up with something that is simpler and less complex than what is in hand now. If one can reduce the number of components or increase the acceptable tolerances among them without effecting the performance of the device I think it a worthy accomplishment.

[Obijuan Kenobe]

Sage level wisdom given away for free around here lately.

Impressive thoughts which I will think about for a long time to come have just been posted.

Sent from a long time ago...in a galaxy far, far away.

[nbp]

Sage level wisdom given away for free around here lately.

Impressive thoughts which I will think about for a long time to come have just been posted.

Sent from a long time ago...in a galaxy far, far away.

Like I said...he needs to write a book! Just as in his lights, there is marvelous logic and wisdom hidden in words that may seem to be a simple package to the casual observer.

[Diablo_331]

Like I said...he needs to write a book! Just as in his lights, there is marvelous logic and wisdom hidden in words that may seem to be a simple package to the casual observer.

I think it's more obvious than you may think. This is the thread that is going to make me start selling all of my belongings just to try out these McGizmo lights. I've held out this long.. I'm stronger than this..
This is an amazing thread. One of the best I've had the pleasure to stumble across here during my short time at CPF. Please keep the info coming as this is a wonderful read!

[nbp]

I held out for 3.5 yrs...but I always had that McGizmo name bouncing around in the back of my head. Tried a lot of other lights in the meantime hoping I could stay clear of the pricey customs. But eventually I cracked and got a Haiku and the rest is history as they say. Not much stacks up anymore.

[kaichu dento]

I think it's more obvious than you may think. This is the thread that is going to make me start selling all of my belongings just to try out these McGizmo lights. I've held out this long.. I'm stronger than this..

Just a word of caution - make sure you keep a couple lights in case these don't turn out to be the light for you. I love my present Haiku, but it can't replace all my other lights, mostly due to size and low level output requirements.

When I'm using it during the day or in the city, it's pretty well all I need, but when I'm needing lower levels, I've got to change to another light.

My personal best from McGizmo would be the Nichia 119 Haiku and all of you fans of Don's lights that don't have one yet should get one on order!

[Tim W]

It's funny. My personal preference if for the PD but in practice I carry the Haiku with me more as an EDC. I think that has more to do with the collectable value of my Ti-PD lights compared with the Haiku which is still in production.

Same here.

I still (my feelings, only) think the PD is the more practical light, but I do love my Haiku and have recently switched to it for EDC use simply for the fact that at current aftermarket prices I simply could not afford/justify replacing the PD if it were lost.

[js]

In the case of the PD's, depending on the nature of "failure" of the Kilroy, high level could certainly be effected. Kilroy is the ground path to the converter and does carry the current to the converter. The contact ring is nothing more than a signal path which when connected to (-) tells the converter to switch to the high output level. When Wayne and I came up with the mother/ daughter board combination for the LunaSol lights I was pleased that now the Kilroy was responsible for the ground path for the 3 mm LED circuit and the contact ring responsible for providing power to the high power LED converter.

I should stop saying anything about how the Ti-PD lights work electrically! I've screwed up twice now. Sorry, Don! I had no idea that the high contact ring was a signal path to tell the convert to switch to high. Neat. I just had remembered you talking about the LunaSol 20 and how there were two independent paths in that light and made an assumption, based on that, and on the fact that in the case of the converter failure in my Ti-PD-S light, low was affected (flickering and unsteady) but not high. Must have been an interesting failure of the converter to cause that to happen.

The first production run of McClickie switches did have a small percentage which were not properly manufactured with a percentage of these faulty in performance. The factory identified the problem and corrected it so that further runs of the switches did not have this issue. I am not familiar with a single catastrophic failure of a switch in the field where someone was unable to get light when they needed it. That's not to say it hasn't happened but I haven't heard of it.

Very good to know, Don!

I feel most fortunate that throughout my history in designing and modifying lights early on and then building them from scratch later that there have not been any designs or assemblies that were faulty in nature or prone to failure. I suppose I can take credit for the mechanical aspects and external power and switching paths as integrated into the lights but the heart and soul of the lights being in the converters, it is Wayne and others who designed and manufactured the converters who get the credit for their reliability and service.

There have been atypical and isolated issues with every design I have worked with and most often with the converter but also most often with the problem showing up right off the bat. Unfortunately not always in my hands but sometimes in yours. It seems that the combination of solid state circuitry with simple and straight forward mechanical switching and electrical paths can generate a high success and confidence level.

Whether identified or not, there is always a reason for a failure and a likelihood for similar failures in other units based on that reason. If the reason is a flaw in design then that flaw needs to be addressed. If the flaw is a faulty component, electrical or mechanical, and not typical across the population then the solution is to replace the faulty component and carry on. I may be guilty of selective memory but I believe the latter case is one I have had to deal with on occasion but not often, fortunately.

There is wear and tear and ultimately a need for replacement of normal wear items. These days it seems that with many if not most things we buy, a failure of a normal wear component is resolved by replacing the entire device itself, especially if it is an electronic device. But this is also true of mechanical devices and seemingly rampant in most consumer goods. But my intent and hope is that my designs of these lights will allow for repair and rebuilding of them for as long as the user sees value and merit in doing so. On this note, I believe the 3S McClickie lights have an edge on the PD lights.

Do you mean the greater ease with which the 3S McClickie lights can be disassembled--the more modular nature of them? Are you thinking the MCPCB / Converter can that is simply and elegantly screwed into the head from the back? Or the McClickie? Or all of this? Could you elaborate a bit, perchance?

There is another thread on what's in store in the future from McGizmo and my guess may not be any better than yours but I do know that I am always trying to come up with something that is simpler and less complex than what is in hand now. If one can reduce the number of components or increase the acceptable tolerances among them without effecting the performance of the device I think it a worthy accomplishment.

Personally, I love the way the Haiku (and presumably, the SunDrop?) heads are designed and put together. As has been said already, it obviously is pretty straightforward, allowing competent users or modders to upgrade the LED, change out the converter, etc. And, you also mentioned that the can has a better heat-conduction contact in the Haiku/SunDrop design vs. the PD heads. That together with the fins on the Haiku suggests better heat management. Do you think that is the case?

[js]

No problem js. Its just my perception that this thread has not really demonstrated any significant superiority in the 3S McClicky lights over the PD lights. There seems to be quite a balanced series of pros and cons on both sides.

I understand your enthusiasm for the 3S McClickie generation of lights and they are undoubtedly great lights as I can testify despite my personal preference veering towards the PD lights.

Bottom line is simply that Don makes great lights and whatever he puts his mind and his hands to turns out to be top notch.

My goal was to lay out, as clearly as possible, what I saw as the pros and cons of PD and 3S. From your first post in this thread, it seems you think I did a reasonably objective job of doing that--and that is really good to hear, as this allows people to look themover for themselves and weigh the relative merits of the pros and cons and decide ultimately which is the system for them. The thread is titled the way that it is because I personally feel that the 3S lights have surpassed the PD lights, but also because Don also feels this way and has made the decision accordingly to offer only the 3S lights and to no longer offer the PD lights. Since so many people seemed to still be wondering IF Don would ever do more PD lights, and WHY he wouldn't, if he wouldn't (and specualtion of the same), the title was also a signal and signpost to others wondering and speculating and wishing for the PD to return. In hind sight, it would have been better to use this title, I suppose:

"The Haiku: why many of us feel the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights" (no exclamation mark). I apologize for the overly-dramatic and exclamatory title. Maybe I will change it, but it's a ltitle late at this point?

[easilyled]

My goal was to lay out, as clearly as possible, what I saw as the pros and cons of PD and 3S. From your first post in this thread, it seems you think I did a reasonably objective job of doing that--and that is really good to hear, as this allows people to look themover for themselves and weigh the relative merits of the pros and cons and decide ultimately which is the system for them. The thread is titled the way that it is because I personally feel that the 3S lights have surpassed the PD lights, but also because Don also feels this way and has made the decision accordingly to offer only the 3S lights and to no longer offer the PD lights. Since so many people seemed to still be wondering IF Don would ever do more PD lights, and WHY he wouldn't, if he wouldn't (and specualtion of the same), the title was also a signal and signpost to others wondering and speculating and wishing for the PD to return. In hind sight, it would have been better to use this title, I suppose:

"The Haiku: why many of us feel the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights" (no exclamation mark). I apologize for the overly-dramatic and exclamatory title. Maybe I will change it, but it's a ltitle late at this point?

js, I certainly understand that you may have wished to help Don by pouring some cold water on the unrealistic "clamor" to return to the PD format.

The fact that these requests have continued for so long shows the strength of feeling that is still around.

Of course, Don has chosen to go down a different path where the current lights are more modular, interchangeable and servicable.

This makes it easier for the users to replace worn/defective/outdated parts easily (without having to send the entire light back)

It seems that its this aspect of the 3S series (in conjunction with the 3-levels) that McGizmo believes gives them "the edge"

There are other more intangible factors than purely practical reasons for winning the user over at the exalted standards that he sets.

I think that the PDs are viewed more as "collectable works-of-art" as well as tools, perhaps for the very fact that they are not so modular, for their unique switch activation mechanism and for their beautiful all-round finish.

If you add this "je ne sais quoi" to the other practical attributes that you listed in the "PD pros", you have a highly desirable collector's item.

I would have personally entitled this thread "Why the PD series will not be revisited"

For me the PD series will never be surpassed.

[kaichu dento]

I would have personally entitled this thread "Why the PD series will not be revisited"

For me the PD series will never be surpassed.

Of course you would have - but it was JS's tale of a journey which he wished to share with all, and for him, all too evidently a deep thinker, the journey led him to retire a cherished feeling in regards to the PD.

Many of us agree with him and Don, and others don't - the expansive world of taste and how it relates to our choices in flashlights - who would've thunk it.

[js]

js, I certainly understand that you may have wished to help Don by pouring some cold water on the unrealistic "clamor" to return to the PD format.

The fact that these requests have continued for so long shows the strength of feeling that is still around.

. . .

easilyled,

Actually, to the extent that my post did aim to help Don out, it was, as kaichu dento points out, much more about the tale of a personal journey from the PD to the 3S and why and how it happened. Not to "pour cold water" on the clamor and enthusiasm for the PD lights! Not at all! In fact, it should be obvious that I myself am one of the people wishing for future waves of PD lights. As I said, it would be great if Don could do BOTH--offer standing waves of the 3S lights, as well as a few probably very short-lived waves of PD lights.

What I did want to pour cold water on was this notion that Don isn't offering the PD lights anymore simply because he can't get his hands on the parts required. This notion is "in the air" around here, it seems to me, and it contributes to a possible feeling that the 3S lights are somehow a kind of compromise and are being offered because the PD lights can't be made anymore due to Wayne and Don parting ways, and not because their creator feels they are better lights, on the whole.

The 3S lights are in no way a compromise or a Don's-hand-was-forced solution! If I found that I was won over to them, there is no telling who might also be won over if given a chance to experience these excellent lights. I wanted to present my personal journey, my reasons, my thoughts, the pros and cons, and so on, so that others might give these remarkable lights a try.

That's all. No cold water here. Just nice hot water representative of my enthuasiasm for McGizmo lights in general, and for the Haiku in particular!

[easilyled]

easilyled,

Actually, to the extent that my post did aim to help Don out, it was, as kaichu dento points out, much more about the tale of a personal journey from the PD to the 3S and why and how it happened. Not to "pour cold water" on the clamor and enthusiasm for the PD lights!

js, I was responding to this point that you made "Since so many people seemed to still be wondering IF Don would ever do more PD lights, and WHY he wouldn't, if he wouldn't (and specualtion of the same), the title was also a signal and signpost to others wondering and speculating and wishing for the PD to return."


It implied to me that you were signalling that the PD system was unlikely to return and that anyone wondering or speculating whether it would, was wasting their time.

I would have agreed with you in this regard, since Don has re-iterated on numerous occasions that he couldn't see a reason to go back to the PD system and has made this abundantly clear.

I also understand your personal journey with the Haiku and the joy it brought you.

This is the magical thing with McGizmo lights. So many of us experienced this exact same feeling when the PD lights came out and there were many quite extraordinary eulogies about them with good reason.

What I did want to pour cold water on was this notion that Don isn't offering the PD lights anymore simply because he can't get his hands on the parts required. This notion is "in the air" around here, it seems to me, and it contributes to a possible feeling that the 3S lights are somehow a kind of compromise and are being offered because the PD lights can't be made anymore due to Wayne and Don parting ways, and not because their creator feels they are better lights, on the whole. The 3S lights are in no way a compromise or a Don's-hand-was-forced solution!

Yes, you definitely cleared up any misconceptions that I (or anybody else) might have had about the sequence of events that led Don down the path to producing the 3S series.

If I found that I was won over to them, there is no telling who might also be won over if given a chance to experience these excellent lights. I wanted to present my personal journey, my reasons, my thoughts, the pros and cons, and so on, so that others might give these remarkable lights a try.
That's all. No cold water here. Just nice hot water representative of my enthuasiasm for McGizmo lights in general, and for the Haiku in particular!

I certainly understand that you intended this as a personal tribute to the 3S lights.

The only thing that I had a problem with is that you seemed to be very determined to steamroller anyone reading this thread with why 3S lights are better than PD lights.

I believe that many of us do not share this view and your own list of pros and cons for each series seems far from conclusive in revealing a "winner".

I accept that Don is leaning towards the 3S series in his personal preference and this is why he went down this road, but at the risk of repeating myself ad nauseam, its ultimately the users that should be the judges for the sake of posterity.

I really don't understand why its necessary to so categorically state that one series is better than another and I think that is a slippery road to go down, because what constitutes a "better" light means so many different things to so many different people.

[js]

. . .

I accept that Don is leaning towards the 3S series in his personal preference and this is why he went down this road, but at the risk of repeating myself ad nauseam, its ultimately the users that should be the judges for the sake of posterity.

I really don't understand why its necessary to so categorically state that one series is better than another and I think that is a slippery road to go down, because what constitutes a "better" light means so many different things to so many different people.

You are right, easilyled. I have modified both the title, and the language of the OP to switch from cateogorical language to the language of personal preference.

See how you like it and report back. I also took out my strongly perjorative comments about the Kroll switch, as the failures of my three Kroll-enabled mini-mags here at work may be far from representative of the sample population as a whole, and also because the main reason I didn't like the Kroll on the Arc was the feel of it. I also made a number of other small changes, FWIW.

[easilyled]

Thanks for making that concession to me js.

This is an extremely compelling and well-thought out thread and I don't mean to detract from it.

[js]

easilyled,

You haven't detracted from this thread at all. On the contrary! I meant it when I said you were right about the language--how I was categorically stating what was really a preference. So I personally feel that this thread, and especially the OP, are much better thanks to your involvement. So, far from my changes being a concession to you, I see them rather as an improvement for all.

And I'm sorry it took me so long to recognizing that I should have been more careful to put things in terms of personal preference. Ah well. It's easy to start saying things categorically and hyperbolically when you're really excited and passionate about something! I think most of us here can understand that in relation to a McGizmo of whatever type or flavor, and thus I hope I can be forgiven for my excesses in the first version of the OP.

Anyway, thanks again, easilyled!

[arewethereyetdad]

While you two are gleefully giving each other foot massages, I would like to categorically state that I prefer the PD series, FWIW. But it IS an enjoyable read!

[scout24]

Great reading from those who feel so passionate about some of the best lighting tools made, regardless of preference. Only here can such spirited conversation take place so politely. Much respect to you both, js and easilyled.

[nbp]

Can't help but feel I need a PD light now so I can truly decide whether I like the 3S, the Twisty, or the PD UI the best. Who of you wants to sell an LS20 on the cheap?!

I have a feeling I would still pefer the 3S UI, but those 20s are just so pretty. Guts aside, that may be the loveliest light Don has ever made.

[fyrstormer]

What is this? Are we not men? Must we talk at length about our feelings?

Seriously though, this thread was supposed to be about the relative merits of the PD vs. 3S systems, and an explanation of why the merits of the 3S system make it the system that will continue being produced, while the PD system fades into history, and somehow it turned into an apology-party.

People will always have their preferences, but progress tends to seek the best bang/buck ratio at each moment in time. It doesn't mean anyone's preferences are invalid, it just means they are human and they don't always care about the most mathematically-optimized solution. Case in point: baroque architecture.

[nbp]

Welcome fyrstormer! You must be new here in this subforum. You'll find us to be a passionate bunch, prone to extended dissertations about the lovely McGizmo line of flashlights, even waxing poetic at times, perhaps taking a moment to write a Haiku.

Your objective and scientific viewpoints will be a refreshing diversion for us sissy-men, no doubt.