I feel like weve reached peak LED for pocket torches. Batt/LED efficiency maxed out.

ledmitter

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For an average sized 18650 or 2X(R)CR123 tactical torch, we are currently at a plateau for innovation. There's only so much more that can be improved with today's latest emitter and lithiums. Most of it now bordering on gimmicky interface features.

Even if CREE or Luminus intro's a new generation of brighter and more efficient emitters we won't be seeing production lights utilizing them until at least half a year afterwards.

Multiple LED's in a large head with deep heat sinking & concomitant multiple 18650's is where the lithium flashlight industry seems to be moving.

But I don't want all that metal in my pocket.

So I figure how much more obsessed and motivated can we get for now. Nothing promising appears to be coming in the near future.
 

Vesper

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PC Magazine Oct, 2002
Steve Wozniak, Apple Computer's co-founder and one of the key people behind the PC revolution, believes the seemingly unrelenting upgrade cycle is leveling off...
"End users pretty much have as much computer as they need, and they really don't need twice the speed anymore," Wozniak said.

I'm thinking the innovations will continue, especially in technologies like lighting and (hopefully) energy.
 
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ledmitter

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PC Magazine Oct, 2002
Steve Wozniak, Apple Computer's co-founder and one of the key people behind the PC revolution, believes the seemingly unrelenting upgrade cycle is leveling off...
"End users pretty much have as much computer as they need, and they really don't need twice the speed anymore," Wozniak said.

I'm thinking the innovations will continue, especially in technologies like lighting and (hopefully) energy.

A machine that has hundreds of components (arguably thousands of micro components); surely there's tremendous room for miniaturization, efficiency and speed improvements.

A battery and some bulb technology doesn't seem to be benefiting by leaps-and-bounds as such under Moore's Law.
 

ledmitter

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I'm sure you'll look back at this post and think did I really post that. :)

Norm

It's been a long time in the LED lifecyle, you can say the first benchmark "bright" led was created by Nichia in 1993 with the gallium nitride.

It's been two decades. Computers have made orders of magnitude in advancements in the same time frame.

I guess my real point is, now that I got what I needed, maybe I can move on unto other things instead of having "Seek ye the ultimate brightest flashlight!" monopolize my thoughts. (ok yeh I'm weak :D) Pursuing this is unnecessarily expensive if what you have is pretty much the state-of-the-art for at least another year. And the purpose is served. There's a point where your return on investment declines.
 

Torchaddict

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There will always be improvements. Human design is downright amazing. Will there be drastic changes within a small timeline for flashlights? Probably not. But improvements always happen. No product field remains stagnant. When LED tech hits the wall, it'll get replaced.
 

saabluster

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It's been a long time in the LED lifecyle, you can say the first benchmark "bright" led was created by Nichia in 1993 with the gallium nitride.

It's been two decades. Computers have made orders of magnitude in advancements in the same time frame.

I guess my real point is, now that I got what I needed, maybe I can move on unto other things instead of having "Seek ye the ultimate brightest flashlight!" monopolize my thoughts. (ok yeh I'm weak :D) Pursuing this is unnecessarily expensive if what you have is pretty much the state-of-the-art for at least another year. And the purpose is served. There's a point where your return on investment declines.

Man you've been here a month and your faith is already wavering? :sigh: There are some big advancements that will be happening soon. This most certainly is not the time to leave just yet.
 

ledmitter

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Man you've been here a month and your faith is already wavering? :sigh: There are some big advancements that will be happening soon. This most certainly is not the time to leave just yet.

Let's say a new generation of CREE LED's is introduced that is ~24% more efficient and 37% brighter and gives off 18% less heat. Would be great, but I'm willing to bet we won't see it this year :D.

Let's say a new generation of CREE LED's is introduced that is ~24% more efficient and 52% brighter but needs 4 amps to achieve this. Battery configuration then becomes a conundrum.

Any advancement in LED output needs to be paired with better lithium performance. Or a new platform altogether.
 

Th232

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Let's say a new generation of CREE LED's is introduced that is ~24% more efficient and 52% brighter but needs 4 amps to achieve this. Battery configuration then becomes a conundrum.

Any advancement in LED output needs to be paired with better lithium performance. Or a new platform altogether.

And pray tell, why would it need 4 amps to achieve the 24% higher efficiency? What's wrong with running it at, say, 2A and having your torch last so much longer before you need to swap batteries?
 

ledmitter

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And pray tell, why would it need 4 amps to achieve the 24% higher efficiency? What's wrong with running it at, say, 2A and having your torch last so much longer before you need to swap batteries?

That's a given. It's like one of those pick two out of three scenarios. What if you want all three?
 

ledmitter

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I have a feeling CREE's next emitter is going to look like a clone of the SST90 :D

Unless their material science engineers (computers) can game some kind of new phosphor, going bigger might be the only way forward.

Like multicore CPU's.
 

Th232

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What's the third scenario? You've listed three characteristics in your hypothetical LED:

* More efficiency
* More brightness
* More power consumption

All three are actually linked. Higher efficiency results in more brightness for the same power consumption, or less power consumption for the same brightness. Or you can sit in the middle and get a bit more brightness and a bit less power consumption.

And regarding a new phosphor or other component, have you seen the results Cree's R&D section put out recently?
 

ledmitter

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I was thinking efficiency, brightness and heat. The law of thermodynamics presents serious limiting issues especially in small, high powered confined places. :D

Haven't read up on any news @ CREE. If you got numbers to share it could be interesting.
 

Th232

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In that case... Higher efficiency => less power consumption and less heat generated for the same brightness. Higher efficiency => more brightness for the same power consumption and less heat. Or sit in the middle and get a bit more brightness, a bit less power consumption and a bit less heat.

Regarding the news, 254 lumens/watt:
http://www.ledinside.com/cree_254lm_per_w_201204

Or if you want to look to the very far future, LEDs converting ambient heat to light so that you get an "efficiency" of over 100%:
http://physics.aps.org/synopsis-for/10.1103/PhysRevLett.108.097403

Only in the picowatts... for now...
 
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ledmitter

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In that case... Higher efficiency => less power consumption and less heat generated for the same brightness. Higher efficiency => more brightness for the same power consumption and less heat. Or sit in the middle and get a bit more brightness, a bit less power consumption and a bit less heat.

Regarding the news, 254 lumens/watt:
http://www.ledinside.com/cree_254lm_per_w_201204

Or if you want to look to the very far future, LEDs converting ambient heat to light so that you get an "efficiency" of over 100%:
http://physics.aps.org/synopsis-for/10.1103/PhysRevLett.108.097403

Only in the picowatts... for now...

Sounds good. But curious if this was achieved using a different die size. Also curious if there was any improvement with junction temperature.

Additionally, if a new phosphor was created, is there any drastic change in lifetime lumen depreciation ratings.

It's generally good news, for investors consumption, but i'd wait to see all the specs and an actual emitter.
 

Hoop

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Hope for future LED's to have better tint control and much higher CRI at neutral CCT. There is a lot of work to be done in these areas for CREE specifically.
 

ledmitter

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^^^ Good point. More lumes with a new phosphor that has even more angry tints is kind of like going backwards. :D We shall see.
 

cland72

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I'm sure in the late 1800's there were some people who thought we'd reached the pinnacle of medical care. Look at how much we've advanced in just the last 20 years.

In 1970 did anyone think there would ever be a car that got 40+mpg? Or that we could make cars run on a mix composed of a majority of ethanol?

Personally I'm hoping for higher capacity batteries -- if I could get a 17670 with 10,000 mah capacity my M61LL would run for 636 hours... Think how great that would be.
 
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fyrstormer

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PC Magazine Oct, 2002
Steve Wozniak, Apple Computer's co-founder and one of the key people behind the PC revolution, believes the seemingly unrelenting upgrade cycle is leveling off...
"End users pretty much have as much computer as they need, and they really don't need twice the speed anymore," Wozniak said.

I'm thinking the innovations will continue, especially in technologies like lighting and (hopefully) energy.
He was right. Computers today aren't significantly faster than they were in 2002. My main computer at home uses an AMD Athlon XP processor from 2004. The significant improvements in computing since the early-to-mid-2000's have been in multi-processing and more efficient data transfer, not in increased processing speed. Among other things, the speed of light is a limiting factor in modern computers. Even if all the wires were superconductors, electricity is limited to the speed of light. The speed of light may be 982,080,000 feet per second, but when the CPU clock runs at 3,000,000,000 ticks per second, that means electrical signals can travel a maximum of 3.9 inches before they arrive too late to be useful for computation. Since the average motherboard is 12 inches by 9 inches in size, and data cables are usually 18 inches long, there is a physical limitation to the maximum speed of a computer. That's why improvements over the past few years have focused on getting more things done at once, and getting things done more efficiently, instead of just getting things done faster.

Similarly, there are physical limitations to the improvements in flashlights as well. Even at 100% efficiency, with all the input power reaching the LED and being converted to light with no waste heat, the power contained in visible light equates to 0.00146 watts per lumen, which sets a physical limit of flashlight brightness at 683.002 lumens per watt. Since 100% efficiency is physically impossible (unless you have a use for the waste heat, such as keeping your hands warm in cold weather), that means LED flashlights will never be able to achieve more than 683 lumens per watt.
 
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