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Thread: Luminus SBT-70 Announced

  1. #61

    Default Re: Luminus SBT-70 Announced

    Quote Originally Posted by fyrstormer View Post
    I can see how the circular LED could end up with a lot of waste UNLESS the dies are cut from a rod instead of from a wafer. However, if a wafer is used, a hexagonal die would have comparable optical properties to a circular die, but with zero wasted wafer area.
    They would never do that. More cost effective to use large wafers and remove the unwanted portion than to create tiny wafers that would need all new machines to process and then have tiny yields. In fact that is a crazy bad idea. No offense meant. The hexagonal idea? Well sure you could do that. But I believe the processes to do that are covered by patents from another company and wouldn't necessarily be as good optically for certain applications.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn7 View Post
    CBT-140 don't have white, only RGB - unless I'm missing something?
    You are thinking of the CBT-40. I said CBT-140. Very different animal. The CBT-140 is to my knowledge the largest monolithic die yet capable of drive current over 27A! Think of it as a grown-up version of the SBT-70.

  2. #62
    Flashaholic* Glenn7's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luminus SBT-70 Announced

    Oooops learn to read glenn! ;0)

    So are you going to make me a DEFT CBT-140 huh! can you huh?

  3. #63

    Default Re: Luminus SBT-70 Announced

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn7 View Post
    Oooops learn to read glenn! ;0)

    So are you going to make me a DEFT CBT-140 huh! can you huh?
    We shall see.



    This next image is processed slightly to enhance contrast.


    You can clearly see that the active region extends to the corners of the device. Unclear in this is whether or not the area under the gold layer is active as well. If so that seems like a massive waste of power unless there is some waveguiding and subsequent escape of the light into the phosphor.

  4. #64
    Flashaholic* Glenn7's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luminus SBT-70 Announced

    Quote Originally Posted by saabluster View Post
    We shall see.
    Ahah!! that's not a no......and I can see its mounted on a heatsink ready to go - first dibs But no pressure Micheal

    She's going to need a few good batteries to pump in 27A to make it shine.
    Last edited by Glenn7; 08-02-2012 at 01:23 AM.

  5. #65
    Flashaholic* ma_sha1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luminus SBT-70 Announced

    Wavien got SBT70 for sale already in their collar,
    http://www.wavien.com/shop/luminus/sbt-70-rlt/

    Thinking about getting one but Not sure if they really have it in stock? picture looks like a drawing of circle to represent the round die?
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  6. #66
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    Default Re: Luminus SBT-70 Announced

    Quote Originally Posted by saabluster View Post
    They would never do that. More cost effective to use large wafers and remove the unwanted portion than to create tiny wafers that would need all new machines to process and then have tiny yields. In fact that is a crazy bad idea. No offense meant.
    No offense taken. It is doable, however, which means that eventually someone will do it. In fact someone may already be doing it. There may well be applications where the benefits of true round dies cut from thin rods are worth the associated costs. If not now, then it might still happen eventually, as current die-manufacturing technology is borrowed from microprocessor foundries where the funky optical properties of a square die in a round reflector are completely irrelevant.

  7. #67
    Flashaholic* bshanahan14rulz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luminus SBT-70 Announced

    I was gonna say shame on you for only posting a teaser image, but then I clicked on over to page 3. Very very interesting! I think somehow they nil'd the active layer. I can't imagine it being a very good idea to just slather some gold on top to block out all but a circle...

  8. #68
    Flashaholic* monkeyboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luminus SBT-70 Announced

    That's a different product (but based on the same die)



    Quote Originally Posted by ma_sha1 View Post
    Wavien got SBT70 for sale already in their collar,
    http://www.wavien.com/shop/luminus/sbt-70-rlt/

    Thinking about getting one but Not sure if they really have it in stock? picture looks like a drawing of circle to represent the round die?
    Last edited by monkeyboy; 08-05-2012 at 01:31 AM.

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Luminus SBT-70 Announced

    Quote Originally Posted by fyrstormer View Post
    No offense taken. It is doable, however, which means that eventually someone will do it. In fact someone may already be doing it. There may well be applications where the benefits of true round dies cut from thin rods are worth the associated costs. If not now, then it might still happen eventually, as current die-manufacturing technology is borrowed from microprocessor foundries where the funky optical properties of a square die in a round reflector are completely irrelevant.
    - well other than the fact you are normally processing hundreds if not thousands of die at once to reduce cost
    - if you ignore thermal issues near the edges of the die
    - etc.

    Just because something can be done, does not mean it will be done. I won't say never though.

  10. #70

    Default Re: Luminus SBT-70 Announced

    There may well be applications where the benefits of true round dies cut from thin rods are worth the associated costs.
    See the applications at the beginning of this thread where current square dies are being used.

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Luminus SBT-70 Announced

    The replies to my post suggest a lack of basic reading comprehension. I never said there wouldn't be unique engineering and manufacturing constraints with round-die emitters, or that the cost wouldn't be higher. I said there may be applications where the benefits are worth dealing with those unique constraints and additional costs.

  12. #72

    Default Re: Luminus SBT-70 Announced

    Quote Originally Posted by fyrstormer View Post
    The replies to my post suggest a lack of basic reading comprehension. I never said there wouldn't be unique engineering and manufacturing constraints with round-die emitters, or that the cost wouldn't be higher. I said there may be applications where the benefits are worth dealing with those unique constraints and additional costs.
    Well I could say the same fyrstormer. It is clear to me you do not understand the significance of what I wrote or the LED making business. Yes it can be done but the astronomical cost means it simply will not be done. I am not one prone to making very absolute comments around here so maybe my "never" comment was a bit too extreme. So instead I will say it is very very very unlikely regardless of the application*. Seriously. What exotic application can you think of that could provide enough volume to prevent the end product from being thousands of dollars per device? How would said device be better than a simple ablation of unwanted die area resulting in an equally round active area?






    *I say this with one caveat. I can see some university lab doing something like this just to see what's possible but that's it about it.

  13. #73

    Default Re: Luminus SBT-70 Announced

    deleted
    Last edited by IMSabbel; 08-07-2012 at 09:18 AM. Reason: double post

  14. #74

    Default Re: Luminus SBT-70 Announced

    I am not as hesitating as saabluster.
    This is one of the very very view areas that I will definitively say: It will NEVER happen.

    Seriously, the idea of using a thing rod (<1cm) for making cicular leds is ridiculous on several levels.

    1. Each led size would require a whole substrate handling toolchain. Something like that can cost dozends of millions. (Not to mention that handling tiny weeny wavers would suck in general)
    2. Serialization of fabrication: Each step would need to be done for each led indiviudally, instead of 100s of leds in one go.

    1+2 would mean that the fabrication would be extremely expensive (even in mass production environment, 100s of $ per device. The idea of it being cheaper than losing 20-30% of the substrate area due to cutting away is ludicrious.

    But thats not really the KO-criterium. What is is:

    3. THere is a reason you never use the outermost regions of substrates. Any bulbs being grown drop in quality to the edges. Making very thin rods would only increase the issues with the crystal quality. The whole idea of "not needing to mill it into a round shape" depends on using the whole substrate up to the outermost um, which will certainly end up in failure (as edge effects will also not help with any of the more esoteric steps of fabrication). To even in the best case, you would need to trip the outermost edges anyway - which totally kills the whole "no milling/cutting" concept.

    Any led made that way would certainly have MUCH worse performance characteristics than a normally created one, so even in a university setting I could only imagine it as a proof of non-viability

  15. #75

    Default Re: Luminus SBT-70 Announced

    OK but getting back to the SBT-70

    Anyone know how its surface brightness compares to the XR-E and how many lumens per watt and what the Vf is (approximately) and have a Lm @ whatever amp and over driving graph? Or a link? Thanks!

  16. #76
    Flashaholic Blitzwing's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luminus SBT-70 Announced

    They don't seem to have appeared in many flashlights yet - correct?

    I'd love to see one in the likes of the Crelant 7G5, Solarforce Pro-1 etc and driven hard from a pair of 18650's.

  17. #77

    Default Re: Luminus SBT-70 Announced

    Quote Originally Posted by saabluster View Post
    We shall see.




    You can clearly see that the active region extends to the corners of the device. Unclear in this is whether or not the area under the gold layer is active as well. If so that seems like a massive waste of power unless there is some waveguiding and subsequent escape of the light into the phosphor.
    Hm. Looking at that picture I wonder... It really does not look as if the active region extends to the edge. The blue glow just seems to be too weak.

    Is it possible that what you see at the edges is just an effect light going sideways through passive substrate and just coupling out at the edges?

  18. #78
    Flashaholic Epsilon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luminus SBT-70 Announced

    And they show up in the stores

    The SBT version first. Maybe the cbt version will come in the near future .

    Avnet (hope this works, but it's worth the try):
    https://avnetexpress.avnet.com/store...oducts&x=0&y=0
    No stock and data yet

    Mouser (this will probably work):
    http://www2.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=sbt70
    stock and prices.

    Datasheet:
    http://www.mouser.com/catalog/specsh...cification.pdf
    up to ~1650lumen for cool white
    up to ~1350lumen for 90CRI
    up to ~ 900lumen for 95CRI

  19. #79
    *Flashaholic* Gunner12's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luminus SBT-70 Announced

    Hum, efficiency doesn't seem too amazing at 10 A, ~40 lumen per watt max. Surface brightness seems to be ~240 lumen per mm assuming the best of the best (top bin 70 CRI cool white). There is no dome to decrease the apparent surface brightness though, so that's a plus for throw.

    The 90 CRI at higher color temperatures does look nice.
    Last edited by Gunner12; 10-16-2012 at 01:21 PM. Reason: misread the spec sheet

  20. #80
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    Default Re: Luminus SBT-70 Announced

    where to find a driver for this led?

  21. #81
    Flashaholic* LilKevin715's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luminus SBT-70 Announced

    Just a quick update it appears Olight will be coming out with a new light featuring this emitter. The new model is called the SR95S UT, some preliminary details of the light can be found on batteryjunction's site.
    My Mag Mods: SST-50 , XM-L

  22. #82

    Default Re: Luminus SBT-70 Announced

    OK, the efficiency of this LED is SO BAD that it seems I have been wrong - it really only makes sense if this is a full substrate, and the circle is formed by electroplating those contracts on top to shadow the edges of the die.

  23. #83
    Flashaholic Fresh Light's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luminus SBT-70 Announced

    Here is part of the SBT70 Binning Chart

  24. #84

    Default Re: Luminus SBT-70 Announced

    Quote Originally Posted by IMSabbel View Post
    OK, the efficiency of this LED is SO BAD that it seems I have been wrong - it really only makes sense if this is a full substrate, and the circle is formed by electroplating those contracts on top to shadow the edges of the die.
    Indeed. I figured as much. It is to be sure a less than elegant solution. And that is about the kindest thing as I can say about it. They clearly could have ablated the active region underneath the gold pad and had a thin gold current spreader run along the side there instead of that massive block.

    I saw someone is coming out with a flashlight using this LED. After fully testing this LED in different setups I wouldn't let this anywhere near something bearing my name.

  25. #85
    Flashaholic Fresh Light's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luminus SBT-70 Announced

    Quote Originally Posted by saabluster View Post
    Indeed. I figured as much. It is to be sure a less than elegant solution. And that min is about the kindest thing as I can say about it. They clearly could have ablated the active region underneath the gold pad and had a thin gold current spreader run along the side there instead of that massive block.

    I saw someone is coming out with a flashlight using this LED. After fully testing this LED in different setups I wouldn't let this anywhere near something bearing my name.
    But since this will be available in the NA flux bin in about a week, won't it have even better throw since 1710 lumens/ 70mm2 = 24.4 lumens per square mm @10.5A vs a top available bin MB SBT90 at a max of 17.7 lumens per square mm @ 9A?

    I don't know they directly compare since the currents are different. But I see the availability of better CRI, 75 vs 70, and 90 and 95 as a good thing. None of the LEDs from luminus have been really that efficient but Cree hasn't made a SBT competitor.

  26. #86
    Flashaholic langham's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luminus SBT-70 Announced

    Have any of you thought about making a small insert with a 12v computer fan that could be placed between the body and the head of an SR90/95 to keep it cooler and allow you to run it closer to the before mentioned 60W mark? It seems like to me the new SR-95 head would take quite well to a forced circulation system that drew suction from the battery compartment area, and lets face it an extra few centimeters is not going to deter people from that monster. Seems like to me that Luminous is the muscle car of the led world, who cares about its overall performance or waist as long as it puts out a lot of light and looks pretty.
    Last edited by langham; 12-11-2012 at 03:49 PM.

  27. #87

    Default Re: Luminus SBT-70 Announced

    Quote Originally Posted by langham View Post
    Have any of you thought about making a small insert with a 12v computer fan that could be placed between the body and the head of an SR90/95 to keep it cooler and allow you to run it closer to the before mentioned 60W mark? It seems like to me the new SR-95 head would take quite well to a forced circulation system that drew suction from the battery compartment area, and lets face it an extra few centimeters is not going to deter people from that monster. Seems like to me that Luminous is the muscle car of the led world, who cares about its overall performance or waist as long as it puts out a lot of light and looks pretty.
    Rather Brutus




    In fact, they are good in their specialized fields of application. They have an excellent temperature sensor next to the crystal, they can be quickly adjusted and saved from overheating.

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