What went wrong with Surefire?

I have spent a lot less time in here for the last 6-7 years. Only recently coming back and bought a few new lights. Back in 8-9 years ago, Surefire was almost the only quality flashlight in the market. (plus a few other individuals custom light). I am quite sad to see there are not many new lights coming out from Surefire and the gap between some of the asian manufacturers are becoming so narrow. I start to think the premium that we have to pay for Surefire is getting diffcult to justify. Am I the only one thinking this way?

desmondpun said:

I have spent a lot less time in here for the last 6-7 years. Only recently coming back and bought a few new lights. Back in 8-9 years ago, Surefire was almost the only quality flashlight in the market. (plus a few other individuals custom light). I am quite sad to see there are not many new lights coming out from Surefire and the gap between some of the asian manufacturers are becoming so narrow. I start to think the premium that we have to pay for Surefire is getting diffcult to justify. Am I the only one thinking this way?

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When they were the only game in town... they could charge whatever they wanted, and could be successful.

Now, there are at least 20 quality flashlight makers, all using labor that is cheap, and in China's case, much more educated.

Like every American company, they can't compete with free trade.

I don't know about you but when I hold a LX2 in my hand and compare it to a other well known brands there is a noticeable difference in construction and quality. Are surefire over priced, well perhaps but I do think there is a quality gap between surefire and many other lights.

I just have a problem with the lack of variety. They are sitting on lights that could sell very well. Like a AA version Titan or a brighter Titan given the LED technology. Lights like the Sunwayman V10R Ti has taken over as my main EDC. it does everything I need it to. It is not overly complicated. It is like a mini U2 Ultra in my pocket but brighter and can run on many different batteries with the AA extender.

Surefire just doesnt offer that versatility. Now their weaponlights on the other hand are great. But there are other companies out there that make good pistol lights that i can justify buying a Surefire.

Solscud007 said:

I just have a problem with the lack of variety. They are sitting on lights that could sell very well. Like a AA version Titan or a brighter Titan given the LED technology. Lights like the Sunwayman V10R Ti has taken over as my main EDC. it does everything I need it to. It is not overly complicated. It is like a mini U2 Ultra in my pocket but brighter and can run on many different batteries with the AA extender.

Surefire just doesnt offer that versatility. Now their weaponlights on the other hand are great. But there are other companies out there that make good pistol lights that i can justify buying a Surefire.

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I can agree with the versatility issue especially on the AA and AAA options. It seems to me that their focus is still on the tactical military areas.

I don't think it is a case of something going "wrong" with SF per say. More like other companies started doing things "right" recently. For so long, SF was the only game in town in you wanted a light for hard-use. Not so much, anymore...

Dare I say, they made the word "tactical" one of the most widely used catch-phrases of the 90's. I cannot think of any other flashlight brand that became so iconic because of their incredible self-marketing.

Ezeriel said:

When they were the only game in town... they could charge whatever they wanted, and could be successful.

Now, there are at least 20 quality flashlight makers, all using labor that is cheap, and in China's case, much more educated.

Like every American company, they can't compete with free trade.

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I'd love to hear your research methodology for determining that Chinese flashlight manufacturing employees are MUCH more educated than the Surefire employees. This should be interesting.

Regarding free trade: consumers don't pay for the cheap flashlights, the workers do with their underpaid labor.
The good news is that you are incorrect in your blanket statement about all US companies, the company I work for has a large number of customers who buy our products because the Chinese equivalent is less reliable.

Ezeriel said:

Like every American company, they can't compete with free trade.

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Flat out wrong; silly overgeneralization. Plenty of American companies compete. It's not easy, of course, but they do. I won't say more here because this is a flashlight forum, not one on trade policy.

I think Surefire lights are still top notch quality. While I would like them to be faster in updating their LEDs, the overall quality makes up for it. In particular I like their toughness and no gimmick designs. In a SOL situation, would you really prefer the latest and greatest led in a questionable body, or would you like something like a LX2?

That said, I love the idea raised above about a new Titan. How about with a Nichia 219?

Love SF as a host, but "typically" there tint/beam quality is lacking for the price you pay IMO.

I like Surefires a lot, and I believe (as long as you do your homework) you get what you pay for. Surefire is still at the forefront, and is apparently has patent lawsuits with other manufacturers, whether warranted or not, this makes it difficult for our local companies to stay in the game affordably.

I don't really care where my products are made as long as they are as reliable as I expected for what I paid, and they cover the warranty offered my two Lumens about that.

I wonder if their Lifetime warranty plays into the considerably higher price. What other flashlight companies offer that? (I ask because I don't know.)

Even though I only own 1 Surefire, and none reside on my "must have" list, I would still consider them among the best out there.

Pelican has an excellent warranty too, I think Surefire is the only lifetime warranty that I've heard of too

Ezeriel said:

When they were the only game in town... they could charge whatever they wanted, and could be successful.

Now, there are at least 20 quality flashlight makers, all using labor that is cheap, and in China's case, much more educated.

Like every American company, they can't compete with free trade.

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Sure they can! If you adjust for inflation, they are charging the same or more than they were charging 7-10 years ago, and back then they were making good lights, so whats their problem?

I went into a Red Wing boot store a couple months ago to see that they are charging between $125 - $259 for Red Wing work boots made in China, and $279 - $359 for boots made in America! Just about 5-7 years ago you could get a good pair of Red Wings for half that or less, and they were made in America. So what these companies are doing, is trying to justify making VULGAR profits off the American people by saying that "we cant compete." Well, they were able to compete just fine a few years ago charging MUCH less money! These few companies are simply using their "made in the USA" label to rip us off, thats all there is to it!

If you were able to make a product in America 7 years ago and make a profit of $30 off each unit you made at that time, which was enough money to make everyone happy, but now you are jacking up your prices so much that you are now making a profit of $90-$120 per unit, then claiming you are being "forced" to do that by Chinese competition, then those claims are complete crap! Thats profiteering plain and simple... The Chinese based companies arent even making that much. PLus, the Red Wing company is "getting over" in another way by charging 30-50% more for a pair of boots made in China than they charged for the same pair made in America just 5-7 years ago.

Surefire is trying to pull some similar B.S. They are relying on their past reputation, while also relying on their continued gov't and police contracts so they can advertise that they are used by US police and soldiers. Then, they almost completely STOP innovating, and they use cheaper components, as well as outdated or inferior LED's and circuitry, and type II anodizing or plastic, while charging more money than any other company out there. Then they play the victim card by saying "we are forced to do this due to Chinese competition." No you arent, you're still making big profits, but then choosing to keep all that money instead of reinvesting it into truly improved/updated product lines.

These companies keep getting away with this crap because they know that the majority of the "unenlightened masses" dont know any better, and these people will keep buying from them, even though they are now selling an inferior product, simply because they hear that the US military uses their stuff. (So they are ripping off the US military too!)

What sums Surefire up for me is the Titan,its a well built very good EDC light but 70 or 100 lumen is really low compared to there competitors it has poor runtimes as well,the LED is dated & the beam profile is poor
then on top of that the price is staggering.The thing is the Titan could be a fantastic light a new LED a new reflector a little tweek in the technology & add that to a very well built light with a great UI,lifetime warranty
& they just might be able to justify a big price for what could be a very good light.Just my opinion .

bansuri said:

I'd love to hear your research methodology for determining that Chinese flashlight manufacturing employees are MUCH more educated than the Surefire employees. This should be interesting.

Regarding free trade: consumers don't pay for the cheap flashlights, the workers do with their underpaid labor.
The good news is that you are incorrect in your blanket statement about all US companies, the company I work for has a large number of customers who buy our products because the Chinese equivalent is less reliable.

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I said "labor" as in "labor pool"

Students in Shanghai slaughtered every other country/city when tested this year.. http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...-a-great-learning-culture-20120219-1th5i.html

...and when it comes to getting higher educated workers, you can get a worker in china with a masters degree for pennies-on-the-dollar for what you'd spend for a high school drop-out in the US.

You'll have to forgive me for my blanket statements; as I live in the NY/PA area of the country, I've seen everything from IBM to Ingersoll Rand shut it's doors in the last 30 or so years.. at last count 18 factories within an hours drive of my house have gone over seas. (I now have 5 left)

"American made" is quickly becoming a thing of the past.

Free-market socialism is triumphing over imperialistic liberalism. (That's a joke, right?)

I was very excited to finally try a Surefire headlamp (Minimus- I tried two, in fact). I wouldn't pay more than twenty dollars for a Minimus. I wanted to like it because of its form factor, but my Zebralight H31w beat the twice-as-expensive Minimus in every imaginable way. It's not about the money; I'm willing to spend what it takes on a custom headlamp in order to get what I want. As others have stated, yes, part of it is about variety. I like neutral tints, as warm tints are too yellow, while cool tints are too blue. No single light is going to please everybody unless you have different options (tint, beam profile, etc). However, it's not just the variety. Form, function, and quality counts. Both Minimuses had prisms, had beams that were ringy with different colour tones throughout, and, worst of all, the beam directly in front of you was the weakest and worst quality of light.

I'll always have a special place for Surefire, as I'll always have one for HDS Systems. These two companies started me on my path of flashoholism, ending in thousands of dollars worth of objects that emit light. I used to be wowed by brightness. I used to place heavy emphasis on lumens. Then and now I want toughness, waterproofness, and quality. But what I really care about, after spending so much on flashlights, is their plain usefulness: the UI, the smoothness and quality of the beam, and, most importantly, the tint. Surefire simply isn't marketing or making flashlights for my desires.

yeah SF needs to step it up

I'm waiting for the new Invictus. I may buy it if I can program the control ring to my liking and the price is not obscene.
I thought about buying the old Invictus but the price was too high @ $695 dollars. Then the retail price dropped 300 dollars. Like I posted before in other threads, how much profit does a company need to make ? With a price drop like that, is Surefire still making money ? That is where the problem is.
I've never bought a Surefire yet. I own a 6P incan that was given to me. I own about 30 China lights.
I'm going to sleep soon. I expect this thread will be locked when I wake up.

"No Versatility"? Ever owned a Kroma Mil-Spec? AZ2? C2? M4? E2L-AA? E1B? There really isn't a job that can't be done with a SF. They don't make a single AA light for a reason. Yeah, people like them and use them, but they see no logic in a low capacity 1.5 volt light. There lights are purpose built. When they did build a AA light, they built one that was very versatile...can take Lithium, Alkaline, or RC AA's. Having owned nearly every SF model, I can say that they definitely have a versatile line-up.

jak said:

I wonder if their Lifetime warranty plays into the considerably higher price. What other flashlight companies offer that? (I ask because I don't know.)

Even though I only own 1 Surefire, and none reside on my "must have" list, I would still consider them among the best out there.

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Thats exactly how I look at it. you pay for the warranty. I sent in my XM00 tailcap about 6 weeks ago, because part of it was broken, resulting in a potential reliability issue in the future, and guess what they did... They sent me a brand new one. I dont know of any other company that would do that.

I am now a proud owner of a Z2, 6P, U2, M951, and E1e. If I need a light I know will work no matter what, I will grab my Surefire. At work, my U2 gets dropped a LOT, and it still hasnt failed me yet. A normal light would have probably broken by now, whether it be the circuit, or the head/tailcap.

~Brian