are ALL of the Surefire three cell (9p?) lights they made P60 compatible?

tobrien

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one of my detectives has a Surefire Laser Products three cell light, I think it's an old, old 9P, but I don't know for certain. it's definitely got the smoother body and says "Laser Products" on it, too.

If I need to get a pic for yall I can snap one of it, but should I recommend my detective a P60 dropin from either Malkoff or Nailbender? I'm really just asking if this light is a P60 compatible light.

it looks like an old(er) original 9P but I want to make sure it'd work with an aftermarket dropin because he really wants to go LED for this light. thanks yall!
 

HotWire

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P90 dropin. LED... just check the voltage. The LED should work on about 9v or more. If it uses 3 primary SureFire batteries there will be many options. I suggest Malkoff. He could also run it on 2 17670 rechargeable batteries. LED dropins available for that too are available.
 

lightfooted

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Since a single 17670 is almost the same length as two CR123As, your not going to be able to fit two of them in the battery tube. Hotwire probably meant to recommend using a pair of 17500s which would allow your detective to use some of the P60 emitters...however it would limit the use to just the rechargeables as dropping in the third CR123A would overdrive and ruin several of the P60 modules. Ultimately I would recommend that the detective decide on one power source that he/she is willing to stick with (rechargeables or primary lithiums) and then use that to determine the emitter module. Remember that rechargeables run about 4 volts fresh off of the charger...so an emitter module designed to function with three CR123As (P90) should also run on the two 17500s with a somewhat noticeable drop in output, heck you could even just use the original P90 lamp and it would work....just not as high an output.

Keep in mind that it's okay to run a lamp/emitter at less than the specified voltage....but it's not okay to exceed it, going over the rated voltage for an LED will usually melt the driver circuitry. If it's an incandecent, exceeding the rated voltage will usually vaporize the filament.

Also tell your detective to keep that old 9P ....it might actually become a collectors item one day. I still have my old Laser Products 6P.
 

tobrien

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Since a single 17670 is almost the same length as two CR123As, your not going to be able to fit two of them in the battery tube. Hotwire probably meant to recommend using a pair of 17500s which would allow your detective to use some of the P60 emitters...however it would limit the use to just the rechargeables as dropping in the third CR123A would overdrive and ruin several of the P60 modules. Ultimately I would recommend that the detective decide on one power source that he/she is willing to stick with (rechargeables or primary lithiums) and then use that to determine the emitter module. Remember that rechargeables run about 4 volts fresh off of the charger...so an emitter module designed to function with three CR123As (P90) should also run on the two 17500s with a somewhat noticeable drop in output, heck you could even just use the original P90 lamp and it would work....just not as high an output.

Keep in mind that it's okay to run a lamp/emitter at less than the specified voltage....but it's not okay to exceed it, going over the rated voltage for an LED will usually melt the driver circuitry. If it's an incandecent, exceeding the rated voltage will usually vaporize the filament.

Also tell your detective to keep that old 9P ....it might actually become a collectors item one day. I still have my old Laser Products 6P.
thanks for the input, bud! As far as keeping the 9p, he totally plans on it afaik :D

also I've got a SF (non-Laser Products) 9P on the way in the mail, so this thread is useful for me, too. thanks for the lesson on exceeding/underdoing voltage!
P90 dropin. LED... just check the voltage. The LED should work on about 9v or more. If it uses 3 primary SureFire batteries there will be many options. I suggest Malkoff. He could also run it on 2 17670 rechargeable batteries. LED dropins available for that too are available.

thanks! so P90 = 3 cell dropins and P60 = 2 cell dropins?

is there an alternative to Malkoff for these P90 drop-ins? I really wanna see if, at least for mine, if I can get an assortment of options, you know? Malkoff doesn't seem to offer much other than XM-L and XP-G, perhaps an SST might be cool or a Nichia 219 or something colored is what I'm curious about :)
 

bstrickler

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thanks for the input, bud! As far as keeping the 9p, he totally plans on it afaik :D

also I've got a SF (non-Laser Products) 9P on the way in the mail, so this thread is useful for me, too. thanks for the lesson on exceeding/underdoing voltage!


thanks! so P90 = 3 cell dropins and P60 = 2 cell dropins?

is there an alternative to Malkoff for these P90 drop-ins? I really wanna see if, at least for mine, if I can get an assortment of options, you know? Malkoff doesn't seem to offer much other than XM-L and XP-G, perhaps an SST might be cool or a Nichia 219 or something colored is what I'm curious about :)

Yep. P90=3 cell, P60= 2 cell.

What kind of output are you looking at? Malkoffs are generally the preferred method, because they are highly reliable, and the VERY FEW failures they've had, Gene has stood behind his products forever, and if it fails (and isn't sold as a blemished item), he has always taken care of any problems.

Combine Malkoff and Surefire, and you have the best warranty and reliability possible on a flashlight.
 

Glock 22

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+1 on this quote. It's like what you said the best! A Malkoff Surefire combo don't get any better.

Combine Malkoff and Surefire, and you have the best warranty and reliability possible on a flashlight.
 

Benson

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Since a single 17670 is almost the same length as two CR123As, your not going to be able to fit two of them in the battery tube. Hotwire probably meant to recommend using a pair of 17500s which would allow your detective to use some of the P60 emitters...however it would limit the use to just the rechargeables as dropping in the third CR123A would overdrive and ruin several of the P60 modules.
Not as far as I know -- could you name these "several" drop-ins?
Ultimately I would recommend that the detective decide on one power source that he/she is willing to stick with (rechargeables or primary lithiums) and then use that to determine the emitter module. Remember that rechargeables run about 4 volts fresh off of the charger...so an emitter module designed to function with three CR123As (P90) should also run on the two 17500s with a somewhat noticeable drop in output, heck you could even just use the original P90 lamp and it would work....just not as high an output.
Just... no.

Okay, fully-charged ICRs and IMRs are 4.2V open-circuit, or 8.4V for 2s. Fresh lithium primaries are 3V open-circuit, or 9V for 3s. But the Li-ion's voltage drops less under load.

Look at these graphs from Silverfox's 123 and Li-ion shootouts:
PanasonicCR123atVariousRates.gif

AW175001100atVariousRates.gif

Note that, at a given discharge current, the 17500 has <i>more</i> than 1.5x the voltage for most of the discharge -- that P90 will be, if anything, a tiny shade brighter, but basically the same.

And every drop-in I know of that works on 2s Li-ion also works on 3 CR123 -- only with very low current draws can they actually sustain over 8.4V for any length of time, and even then it's less than 10% over; there's no reason to design a driver with that tight a margin. If there are any drop-ins known to fry on 9V, as you imply, I'd like to know so I can avoid them even with Li-ions.

The only reason not to treat 2s 17500 and 3s CR123A as fully equivalent in practice is high current loads (such as the P91) -- primaries can be beaten to death at >2.5A, because you don't need to recharge them. Li-ions will work for a while (and deliver more power), but this abuse will lead to an early, possibly volatile death. You need 18500s (or IMR14500s, at ~50% runtime cost) to safely exceed 2.2A.
 

yellow

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so P90 = 3 cell dropins and P60 = 2 cell dropins?
for INCAN light assemblies! the led ones all are named "P60"

with the led inserts, "usually" there are 2 differnt ones:
1st: running on ONE (Li-Ion) cell and (input Voltage 3.5-4.2 V)
2nd: the rest, running from 2 to x cells. (Voltage from 6 V to ...)

... in an old 9P any P60 led insert fits, just make sure You/he gets one for an input voltage of ~8 V, or for 2 Li-ion cells.
Then put 2 * 17500 into, thats the same length than 3*Cr123
... and check for that insert to have an input from 6-10 Volts, then the 3*CR will also work ...



PS: You/he should think of switching to 18 mm cells. One single 18650 stores about 1.3 thimes the power than the two 17500s!
And the 6P light is smaller - which will make bringing all Your gear easier.
Perfect quality, already bored for 18 mm, host lights can be gotten from www.overready.com - as long as the discontinued lights are still available.

ONE negative point: CR123 batteries then need a "sleeve" not to rattle ... the 18650 setup is best for going totally rechargeable
(for me that is the only reasonable and cost effective way when really using a light, but ...)
 

lightfooted

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@Benson:

I can name one specifically: Solarforce XM-L 1 mode 3.7 volt module....they also make a 3 mode and a 5 mode as well as 5 more XP-G modules with a 3.7 volt upper limit. I have seen other similar rated modules on a popular discount site. Perhaps you only buy modules from certain well known names repeatedly brought up here but that does not preclude the existence of others. You are correct that I do not know if they will literally fry under a small over voltage application...but my Solarforce began strobing when I loaded two RCRs inadvertently during a lego session. I was not interested in testing my theory at the time.

I agree that quality modules are more than capable of handling up to 9 volts input...I've even seen some rated for 18 volts, but since they (3.7v modules) do in fact exist I wanted to be sure the op was aware that not all modules are designed alike. Check your voltages is the best advice here.

Okay sure, load voltages are generally lower than when just connected directly to the meter....but even at 3.6 volts each it still makes less than the incandescent P90's rated 9 volts which means it will be less bright than fresh primaries. Output...not runtime is what I was referring to.
 

Benson

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@Benson:

I can name one specifically: Solarforce XM-L 1 mode 3.7 volt module....they also make a 3 mode and a 5 mode as well as 5 more XP-G modules with a 3.7 volt upper limit. I have seen other similar rated modules on a popular discount site.
A 3.7V module will fail on 2 Li-ions just as surely as on 3 primaries. I use some cheap dropins as well, but I've never had one rated for 8.4V (i.e. 2s Li-ion) fail or behave strangely on 3 primaries.

You said (emphasis mine):
Hotwire probably meant to recommend using a pair of 17500s which would allow your detective to use some of the P60 emitters...however it would limit the use to just the rechargeables as dropping in the third CR123A would overdrive and ruin several of the P60 modules.
But since those several drop-ins would fry on a pair of 17500s as well... I don't see your point.

I agree that quality modules are more than capable of handling up to 9 volts input...I've even seen some rated for 18 volts, but since they (3.7v modules) do in fact exist I wanted to be sure the op was aware that not all modules are designed alike. Check your voltages is the best advice here.
Okay... that doesn't seem at all like what you said before. But on this, we're in agreement. :)

Okay sure, load voltages are generally lower than when just connected directly to the meter....but even at 3.6 volts each it still makes less than the incandescent P90's rated 9 volts which means it will be less bright than fresh primaries. Output...not runtime is what I was referring to.
:sigh:
Did you look at the graphs?

Considering 1A:
the CR123 delivers 2.75V fresh; this means 8.25V for 3 (and falls off rapidly)
the 17500 delivers 4.1V fresh; this means 8.2V for 2 -- they start basically equal, with the CR123 slightly ahead for perhaps a half minute.

the CR123 quickly drops to 2.5V and stays more-or-less level to 30 minutes; this means 7.5V for 3
the 17500 doesn't drop off to 3.75V (x2=7.5V) for 25 minutes -- this whole time (except the first ~30s), it's brighter than the 3xCR123.

From there to about an hour, they're pretty much equal; at that point the 17500s drop out quite sharply, while the CR123s staggers on for a while at ever-decreasing voltage.

At no point are the CR123s delivering a significantly higher voltage for any significant time, but the 17500s are significantly brighter for the first third of the discharge. Saying the 17500s "will be less bright" is just not correct in any useful sense, even if it's technically "true" (by a tiny amount, for 30 seconds).

That's all assuming 1A (approximately = P90) -- you can compare them yourself at 2A, where the CR123s do even worse!
 

lightfooted

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Technically true is still just as true regardless of how significant you think it is.

I'm not trying to argue that the graph is not accurate, but it only represents a single usage scenario...how many times a day do YOU run your light until there is no power left to run it? I would argue that it's not a common real world usage at all. I disagree that the "first ~30 seconds" is not significant especially if the only use the light sees is momentary flashes that may add up to one second at a time and occasionally may be two to three seconds...that ~30 seconds would last a while....especially if there was plenty of time in between uses to allow the cells to recover. I wonder what that graph would look like if the cells were only ran for 15 seconds per day...how long before the primaries started at below 3 volts?
 
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Benson

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Technically true is still just as true regardless of how significant you think it is.
Yep, <1% voltage change = "a somewhat noticeable drop in output". Absolutely.

I'm not trying to argue that the graph is not accurate, but it only represents a single usage scenario...how many times a day do YOU run your light until there is no power left to run it? I would argue that it's not a common real world usage at all. I disagree that the "first ~30 seconds" is not significant especially if the only use the light sees is momentary flashes that may add up to one second at a time and occasionally may be two to three seconds...that ~30 seconds would last a while....especially if there was plenty of time in between uses to allow the cells to recover. I wonder what that graph would look like if the cells were only ran for 15 seconds per day...how long before the primaries started at below 3 volts?
How long? ZERO! ZERO SECONDS LONG! Just look at the graph, which you say you're not trying to argue is not accurate! It starts below 3 volts the very first time -- and it's not gonna charge itself! It starts, by my crude eyeball estimate, at 2.75V (aka "below 3V"), putting the whole stack a whopping (i.e. tiny) 50mV higher than the Li-ions, and that's at only ~80% of actual P90 current.

*takes deep breaths, looks around thread*
Look, I've got no stake in who's right and who's wrong, or whether tobrien's friend uses 17500s or CR123 -- I just want everyone to be better informed, and when that means someone else has the numbers on there side and I have to eat my words, I do that.
But what I'm seeing in this thread: I'm throwing out numbers, which you don't disagree with per se, you just think they're misleading in your view of real-world use; you're throwing out general statements that I can't disagree with, technically, but I think they're misleading in my view of real-world use. Since we're arguing across each other, I don't think either of us is actually getting more informed, and I doubt OP finds it a particularly amusing spectator sport. So, I'm done arguing... we can agree to disagree, or not, but that's all from me. Have fun, and enjoy your favorite photon-spewer no matter what you run it on!
 
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