Searching For a Light (High CRI, Thrower)

chanjyj

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I lost my HDS 170T sometime ago (yes, it fell out of my pocket while on a routine patrol, believe it or not) and have been searching a replacement light, but haven't been able to find any that meets my criteria. Hence throwing out the question to the CPF community. Maybe someone has a recommendation that I don't know of. A replacement HDS is out of the question at the moment - Henry just cannot get them out fast enough and I don't want to wait. That said, the High CRI versions are still sub 200 lumens.


Personally I've come to the conclusion such a light does not exist - after months of searching I've still not found any.


Light Criteria
1. Bombproof
Needs to be on the level of HDS, Fenix TK10/11 and Barbolight. I haven't tortured my Elzetta yet, but I would hazard a guess that the Elzetta is also up to the mark.


Stock Surefires (with the exception of the 'M' series do not make the cut).


2. Waterproof
Well, a high priority. I'd like it to be of HDS standard (20m), but I'm willing to accept Fenix's IPX8


N.B. Fenix's IPX8 = 1.5m for 1h, but I've personally tested it to be much deeper and longer.


I would like the dealer to state that it is either 'waterproof' or 'weatherproof to xx metres'. If the dealer doesn't state that, the light is out of this selection process.


One exception I will make is for certain lights (Surefire M2 comes to mind) that have a proven track record (proven = multiple sources, not 1 or 2 people chiming in saying their light is waterproof).


3. 150+ lumens
150+ lumens OTF minimum. If not OTF, then it needs to be 200+ lumens, to take into account light loss from reflector, glass etc.
Also consider that the light output may drop after start up time. 4sevens' Quarks come to mind, even though they are rated OTF for their XP-G R5 models.


4. Takes RCR123s/17670/18650
I don't really give a damn, as long as it's rechargeable, 2 cells max.


5. High CRI
This is one of the tough ones that limit the selection. If there is one requirement I am willing to budge on, this is it.


6. Need Throw
Another tough one. AFAIK most high CRI lights are not going to throw far due to my size requirements (below). I'll settle for throw equivalent to a HDS 170T.

7. Size
No larger than a Surefire 6P.


Well, that's about it. I've tried many options. M61 219 in an Elzetta host (bombproof, no throw); M60 in an Elzetta host (bombproof, poor CRI)... the list goes on.
 

motigg

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I just put together a light that might fit your needs. It's a Oveready bored Surefire 6P host running a Mac's customs P60 triple with 3500k (warm) XP-Gs. Three modes, bright on high (not sure how bright exactly, at least 400 lumens). It's technically not high CRI, though I find that it renders colors very well, and I'm comparing it with HDS high CRI (P4) and my Malkoff M61 hCRI. You'd have to ask Mac if he can build you another 3500k triple. The Oveready 6P hosts have two o-rings on the tail side and though there are no waterproof claims, I think these hosts are pretty good on that score (maybe others with more experience can chime in here). You could get a setup like this that wouldn't run you much more than a new HDS.

Another option with the 6P host that would provide better throw is to get a drop-in from vinhnguyen. He recently sent me a 3000k drop in that renders colors very well, has three useful modes, with significant power (around 700 lumens) on high. It throws very well--would outshine the HDS 170 by a wide, wide margin.


This setup runs on either 18650 or 2 CR123s, is relatively small, and bombproof. The waterproof question will have to be answered by others. I would trust someone's experience on this question more than company claims about waterproofness.
 

archimedes

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Although I haven't yet had the opportunity to try these, perhaps an ArmyTek Predator torch ... ?

Compact flashlight, deep reflector for throw, rechargeable compatible, IPX-8 with double O-rings, programmable output up to 500 lumen.

I don't know about extreme durability, but supposed to have "doubled critical electric circuits".

I think there have been (limited?) runs with High CRI emitters.

Other options might be to consider Peak Night Patrol HighCRI models, or even a McGizmo ( "6v" ) Makai ....
 
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twl

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I'd contact Gene at Malkoff and see if he can do a custom module for you, and you could put it in your Elzetta.
A suggestion might be the Nichia 219 behind one of the TIR optics that Gene uses in the latest Wildcat. That should make that Nichia throw.

Just a thought.
 

chanjyj

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Thanks all for your replies.

I just put together a light that might fit your needs. It's a Oveready bored Surefire 6P host running a Mac's customs P60 triple with 3500k (warm) XP-Gs. Three modes, bright on high (not sure how bright exactly, at least 400 lumens). It's technically not high CRI, though I find that it renders colors very well, and I'm comparing it with HDS high CRI (P4) and my Malkoff M61 hCRI. You'd have to ask Mac if he can build you another 3500k triple. The Oveready 6P hosts have two o-rings on the tail side and though there are no waterproof claims, I think these hosts are pretty good on that score (maybe others with more experience can chime in here). You could get a setup like this that wouldn't run you much more than a new HDS.

For me to use a 6P I would need to have it type 3 anodised, and replace the switch with a McClicky (or some form of clicky). Otherwise it it would fail on both bombproof (HAII) and waterproof (rotary) requirements. Mac's triple is high on lumens, but AFAIK is not really a thrower. I only need around 200+ lumens now. More lumens would be great, but the one I really need is the lux.

Another option with the 6P host that would provide better throw is to get a drop-in from vinhnguyen. He recently sent me a 3000k drop in that renders colors very well, has three useful modes, with significant power (around 700 lumens) on high. It throws very well--would outshine the HDS 170 by a wide, wide margin.

As above, I would try to avoid the 6Ps at the moment - though I have a Solarforce L2P on the way and will subject it to some torture and see how it stands up. Maybe that will make me reconsider (yeah, I got a Solarforce to abuse..)

This setup runs on either 18650 or 2 CR123s, is relatively small, and bombproof. The waterproof question will have to be answered by others. I would trust someone's experience on this question more than company claims about waterproofness.

Have personal experience with stock 6Ps. None has failed, but none have really been "through the fire" either because I've not dared to test them. On a sidenote I was thinking about about your 6P suggestions and started wondering if a non-modular version would be more appropriate to withstand drops. Though of course, if you look from the other POV, you can replace anything that spoils if it's modular.. (but would I have the spare parts with me on person?)

Although I haven't yet had the opportunity to try these, perhaps an ArmyTek Predator torch ... ?

Compact flashlight, deep reflector for throw, rechargeable compatible, IPX-8 with double O-rings, programmable output up to 500 lumen.

I don't know about extreme durability, but supposed to have "doubled critical electric circuits".

I think there have been (limited?) runs with High CRI emitters.

I will do some research into this. Might be an option - if I can find some high CRI options. The "ArmyTek" brand seems to have made an appearance and disappeared from the scene pretty quickly though.

Other options might be to consider Peak Night Patrol HighCRI models, or even a McGizmo ( "6v" ) Makai ....

Possible also. Will consider them if nothing else comes up - I find them to be rather hideous looking though. One man's meat, another's poison.

I'd contact Gene at Malkoff and see if he can do a custom module for you, and you could put it in your Elzetta.
A suggestion might be the Nichia 219 behind one of the TIR optics that Gene uses in the latest Wildcat. That should make that Nichia throw.

Just a thought.

Not a bad idea. However, I think Gene has his hands full at the moment IIRC. Is the Wildcat TIR P60 sized though?
 

archimedes

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Just FYI, if you are still considering "6P" hosts, you can purchase them custom HA-III coated direct from Oveready. They also have "clicky" switch upgrades available, or Triad tails ... among many other options :)
 

twl

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Thanks all for your replies.

The Wildcat has 3 XPG emitters, with each one having its own optic. The optics on each XPG are small enough to fit in a P60 size module with no trouble. They appear to look similar/same as the one used in the M60.
I don't know for a fact if these optics are suitable for the 219, but I was just speculating.
 

motigg

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Type II is no less bombproof than HA III because it's only cosmetic. Scratches aren't going to effect the performance of the light. But in any case, as archimedes says, Oveready has type III 6Ps, though they are not cheap (but very nice--I have the black HA one and really like it). My sense is that 6Ps with McClickys are very tough and reliable. And you get tons of drop-in options. No doubt someone here has experience using a custom 6P with drop-ins hard.

Edit: I've seen a couple videos on Youtube of people water testing their 6Ps. Looks good.
 
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CarpentryHero

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Oveready has p60 hosts of there own with Mcclickie tailcaps, pricy but worth it.
Nailbender can make his dropins potted to handle the recoil for rifle use.

If you already have an Elzetta, then you already have one of the best p60 hosts on the market ;)

Or send your favorite Surefire too MilkySpit and have him make it Hi Cri :D
 

chanjyj

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Just FYI, if you are still considering "6P" hosts, you can purchase them custom HA-III coated direct from Oveready. They also have "clicky" switch upgrades available, or Triad tails ... among many other options :)

Type II is no less bombproof than HA III because it's only cosmetic. Scratches aren't going to effect the performance of the light. But in any case, as archimedes says, Oveready has type III 6Ps, though they are not cheap (but very nice--I have the black HA one and really like it). My sense is that 6Ps with McClickys are very tough and reliable. And you get tons of drop-in options. No doubt someone here has experience using a custom 6P with drop-ins hard.

Thanks guys. I'm aware of Overready's options.

The main problem is this - all of the Type 3 anodised 6Ps are also bored for 18mm. While I cannot say scientifically that this will make it X% weaker structurally, I don't want to take the risk. I have managed to spoil a Fenix TK10 three times, a TA21 once.. I don't know what else has gone through my hands and died. I'd rather play safe (although I carry at least 2 lights with me, one in my bag and one on body).

motigg, you are correct on your type 2 statement, but I think that if the light is meant to take abuse, it will be designed for it hence the M2 line, and perhaps the C2 line (although I cannot find significant difference between the P, C and M lines to be honest). If I were going for the best, I would rather it be type 3 rather than 2 as well.

Now that aside, the P60 standard is also a real and present limitation. The P60 drop ins themselves require some tinkering to ensure optimal heat transfer. Mode switching is usually an issue too (I hate reverse clickys!). I would always prefer lights that have other forms of switching. Eg via head, TK10; via tailcap, Elzetta... Finally, the size of the P60 may also limit the reflector depth.

The Wildcat has 3 XPG emitters, with each one having its own optic. The optics on each XPG are small enough to fit in a P60 size module with no trouble. They appear to look similar/same as the one used in the M60.
I don't know for a fact if these optics are suitable for the 219, but I was just speculating.

Twi, the M60 optic is a Carlo 8 degree optic IIRC. The wildcat is a 15 degree optic. I'll need to check up on this, I've been out of the flashlight scene for quite some time and forgotten quite alot (and now there are so many new brands in the market!).

Regards
Chan
 

chanjyj

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If you already have an Elzetta, then you already have one of the best p60 hosts on the market ;)

Or send your favorite Surefire too MilkySpit and have him make it Hi Cri :D

The problem is the damned P60s! My M61 219 doesn't have much throw, and since it has largely the same footprint as the XPG high CRI, I doubt the XPG will perform any better. XREs don't come in the high CRI flavour, and I don't know about the XPEs. May have to settle for a Nichia 219 in a smooth reflector in the end. But is it worth it, considering I already have a M61 219? I have my doubts the smooth reflector will help significantly.

How could I forget MilkySpit! If I can't find a route then I suppose..
 
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tjswarbrick

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The problem is the damned P60s!

Have you considered a D36 head on your Elzetta or another "P60" host (I like the HA-III C2)?
I haven't tried it yet, but the one I do have in that size range (Lumintop TD15x) throws better with an XM-L than either my 219 or XPG M61's.

I think you could find someone (Nailbender and Milkyspit come to mind) to build a smooth-reflector 219 D36 module. Now you've got me thinking I need to get one myself.

Good luck!
 
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Ti²C

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Maybe you ou should give a try to the dereelight p60 host... It's not as tough as a tk10, but it's only a 32$ host that is very well designed for heat transfer and waterproofness.
with a high cri xp-g if you can stand the lower cct, it will be a decent thrower for the size (xp-g throws better than the 219) and in case you need more throw, there is always the DBS head option for a few more bucks...
 

CarpentryHero

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The Malkoff hi cri XPG is less floody than the Malkoff Nichia. I have a VinhNyugen p60 dropin and it'd probably throw as good as you old HDS170. It throws typical of a XPG sized dropin with an OP reflector. The slightly larger reflector makes a difference. The 219 isn't as tight a beam as an XPG but it's close in a full size p60.
A little aluminum tape and your good to go.

The nice thing about P60 is you can try both reflectors
 

RobertM

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1. Bombproof
Needs to be on the level of HDS, Fenix TK10/11 and Barbolight. I haven't tortured my Elzetta yet, but I would hazard a guess that the Elzetta is also up to the mark.


Stock Surefires (with the exception of the 'M' series do not make the cut).

Just out of curiosity, what specific types of abuse are your lights being subjected to that are causing non-M-Series SureFires to fail?
 

chanjyj

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Maybe you ou should give a try to the dereelight p60 host... It's not as tough as a tk10, but it's only a 32$ host that is very well designed for heat transfer and waterproofness.
with a high cri xp-g if you can stand the lower cct, it will be a decent thrower for the size (xp-g throws better than the 219) and in case you need more throw, there is always the DBS head option for a few more bucks...

DBS head would be un-pocketable for me. SureFire 6P size is stretching the limits.

The Malkoff hi cri XPG is less floody than the Malkoff Nichia. I have a VinhNyugen p60 dropin and it'd probably throw as good as you old HDS170. It throws typical of a XPG sized dropin with an OP reflector. The slightly larger reflector makes a difference. The 219 isn't as tight a beam as an XPG but it's close in a full size p60.
A little aluminum tape and your good to go.

The nice thing about P60 is you can try both reflectors

Thanks guys. I'll be looking into this option.
 

chanjyj

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Just out of curiosity, what specific types of abuse are your lights being subjected to that are causing non-M-Series SureFires to fail?

I knew this question would come up sooner or later :grin2:

2 scenarios I can think off the top of my head:
1. Pulling out a drowning person (suicidal) person from a reservoir and having the light dragged around in the water (submergence in water is not a good test of waterproofing. Subjecting the light to movement underwater is. i.e. Don't put it in a cup of water, put it in the washing machine to test it out). Actually in this scenario a M series would technically also fail since it's identical to a double 'O' ringed non-M series. Maybe it's a 'O' ring issue.. I just have more 'faith' when holding on to a M2 vis-a-vis a 6P.
2. Having the light fly out and fall on its head while cycling at 30+ km/h. I believe in this case the thicker M2 head helps out quite a fair bit. Happened to a HDS 170T, but in for that light I believe the total mass was the saving factor.
 

think2x

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The Malkoff hi cri XPG is less floody than the Malkoff Nichia.


Yes as Kendall says, the XP-G HCRI has more throw than the Nichia one. I also had the Lumens Factory XP-G HCRI drop in and it throws better than the Malkoff. Put it in a stock 6P or C2 and feed it AW16340's. It runs off of a single 17670 too but drops out of regulation too early. (the one I had anyway)
 
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