Rant : 20 minute max setting runtime.

iocheretyanny

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Back in the day before Henry went with the ridiculous(my opinion) 1 hour runtime on max setting - it used to be max brigntess for only 20 minutes. That was ok because HDS had 20 levels and one would usually use the lower setting, but the ability to have the absolute brightest level for the time was there if the need arose.

Why can't any manufacturers do the same?

Maybe I am part of the bygone era, but I keep waiting, especially in AA nimh factor. Would it not be cool to have 300+ lumens if needed from a cheap and safe single nimh, or having a 450+ lumes HDS level handy. To me having ability to run at max brightness with a shorter runtime like 20 minutes seems like a great compromise.
 

Norm

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Maybe I am part of the bygone era, but I keep waiting, especially in AA nimh factor. Would it not be cool to have 300+ lumens if needed from a cheap and safe single nimh, or having a 450+ lumes HDS level handy. To me having ability to run at max brightness with a shorter runtime like 20 minutes seems like a great compromise.

Henry designs his lights for maximum reliability, not maximum brightness at the expense of LED life an reliability, I wouldn't expect Henry to compromise his design ideals to satisfy a small segment of the market.

I think you need to look elsewhere for maximum brightness.

Norm
 

AZPops

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Correct me if I'm woh, ... Wrrr, ... Wroofff, ... Wrooong! Ok said it!

But the high output for an HDS use to be 20 seconds prior to stepping down a notch. The newer models, go for 40 seconds before stepping down!
 

iocheretyanny

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Correct me if I'm woh, ... Wrrr, ... Wroofff, ... Wrooong! Ok said it!

But the high output for an HDS use to be 20 seconds prior to stepping down a notch. The newer models, go for 40 seconds before stepping down!


Yes you are wrong.

I am talking about lights before step-down design. Example HDS 60.
 

Tiresius

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Heat management...Henry's lights had 190 lumens and it wasn't pushed hard. With today's LED being pushed hard, it's hard to keep it at max settings longs. You'd end up with a fried board or a dead emitter. Most manufacturer have step-downs to protect their lights from being damaged.

I remembered having my Qmini123 go super hot after 2min with a 16340.
 

iocheretyanny

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Henry designs his lights for maximum reliability, not maximum brightness at the expense of LED life an reliability, I wouldn't expect Henry to compromise his design ideals to satisfy a small segment of the market.

I think you need to look elsewhere for maximum brightness.

Norm

I am looking elsewhere. But speaking of Henry's designs - I am sure the prior designs are still running fine and true.
 

ico

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With the Ultimate 60, I guess the runtime of 20 minutes was not correlative to the maximum output the LED can emit rather the maximum was 20 minutes because of inefficient drivers compared to drivers we now have.
 

HarryN

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I considered at one time to offer an LED light that would only run for 15 - 20 minutes, with no holds barred power (with the exception that it was going to run from a small cell).

From an LED perspective, there are ways to manage this heat. The greater challenge is that running Li enhanced AAs or R123s at 2.5 C can get dicey. Yes, a very high quality cell can discharge at this rate, and I would even argue that R cells are cheap enough now that you can abuse a cell, run it 5x, and toss it to reduce damage related risk.

The challenge is - can you count on customers to do this, at the risk of getting sued ? If flashlights were incredibly profitable - yes you could, but they aren't, so a North America or EU based company just cannot risk it.

That is the reason why if you want a "hyper performing screamer" that runs in the red zone, build it yourself. There are so many light bodies and parts on the market now, it really isn't that hard.
 

ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

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Instead of complaining about something which you are completely wrong about why don't you try reading the manual? In the newest batch of lights there is the option to turn off the Burst feature and let the light run on level 24 high for as long as it can with no step down to level 23. Running in this mode the runtime is reduced to ~30 minutes.

So what you are asking for appears to already be in place.
 

iocheretyanny

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Henry what you suggest above is not what I was thinking.

I was thinking add a level or 2 to the existing light that allowed for max brightness, and as the light gets hot it steps down as needed. Call it the high brightness model or something. The programming can already handle the thermal management. Most of time max I snot needed, bu tin some situations the more the better.

But I am not referring to HDS lights in particular although I am a fan, and would love to buy something like that.

My rant refers to design of multilevel lights that do not take advantage of max brigntess LEDS allow.
 

iocheretyanny

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Instead of complaining about something which you are completely wrong about why don't you try reading the manual? In the newest batch of lights there is the option to turn off the Burst feature and let the light run on level 24 high for as long as it can with no step down to level 23. Running in this mode the runtime is reduced to ~30 minutes.

So what you are asking for appears to already be in place.

Cool thanks for info.
What are the lumens at level 24? I have not heard of brighter then 200 lumens?
 

iocheretyanny

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As they should none of Henry's designs were overstressed.

Norm

They were some of the hardest driven and brightest flashlights one could buy (HDS 85) as an example. That is no longer the case.

I am by no means bashing Henry's lights, they are some of the best. I just happened to use them as example of a many level light, that no longer allowes the maximum brightness safely possible. This does not make sense to me in general.
 

AnAppleSnail

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Cool thanks for info.
What are the lumens at level 24? I have not heard of brighter then 200 lumens?

Ok, so your clicky 200 now has 2 more brightness settings, say 300 and 400 lumens. Most RCR lights exhaust the cell in about half an hour at that rate, and you're generating huge heat. And a primary suffers under this load, and so does a bad or weak cell. And what is the gain?

The gain is almost squat. Going from 200 to 300 lumens is noticeable, but not impressive. Your seeing range increases by L/D^4, where L is output and D is distance. To see even 25% farther away (125 instead of 100 yards) requires over double output. So with half the runtime and 25% more range, when is that a good trade? Top quality cells can give you this trade without failing. Poor quality cells (Old or cheap) will not deliver the output, while sacrificing runtime and risking a catastrophe. Lithium poisoning isn't something you want to risk!

Henry talks about caving lights on his site. He had an experience with a dead short in a large lithium primary. He would be dead or badly injured and still crippled if it had happened in a cave. No matter the emergency, an action with a good chance of making it worse (Expiring the battery without much gain, or destroying your light and poisoning those nearby) is not a good choice. You end up with no light too soon. As an engineer, it's Henry's choice to enable or disable this possible choice. I see why he does not easily enable such potentially destructive behavior in his lights. I'll try some rumors with the rotary I have on order once it arrives, and hope I never need use the trick.
 

ico

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The best solution for that is to not carry only one light. One is none, two is one, 3,4, or 5 will be so much fun.:naughty:
 

ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

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My rant refers to design of multilevel lights that do not take advantage of max brigntess LEDS allow.

I think this is somewhat a limit on the driver design. Limitation of the creator based on time, money, space, skill, experience may limit what a company can do in terms of brightness. Also a limit on the power source of a CR123 cell. Consider that a regular CR123 driven hard at 1.5Amps is only providing 2.5v x 1.5 A = 3.75W. With a XP-G running around the ~1A area you are looking at a Vf of ~3.2v. Even with 100% efficiency of the driver you only get 3.75W/3.2V = 1.17A. And, not every CR123 out there can handle being run continuously at 1.5A, manage to hold 2.5v and not overheat. Then when you throw a RCR123 in the mix you have some drivers which just go direct drive, some which lose levels, some which are designed with a proper buck, etc.

Take a look at the RRT-01. This is a perfect example of a light that runs reasonable on a CR123 but can blast lots of light when you go to a 18350. The driver is designed to do it and all level controls work perfectly with the Li Ion.

Cool thanks for info.
What are the lumens at level 24? I have not heard of brighter then 200 lumens?

According to the PDF (http://hdssystems.com/Products/Edc/EdcUsersGuide.pdf) is says 200 or 238 for level 24. Now I don't know if that means the HDS 200 lights is at the 200 or not because I also see a listing for 238 lumens but no lights available at that level. Maybe someone who's actually tested has some input into the HDS levels being conservatively rated or not.
 

AnAppleSnail

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Applesnail - What you fail to grasp is that one does not have to use the max constantly, but it is good to have it as an option.

That's not a very polite way to state your assumption or opinion. Disagreement is quite a different animal from incomprehension. I feel that I have outlined why it is not always a good option to have a higher mode, irrespective of circuit-design or cost considerations. Another user mentioned why XP-G lights do not usually come over 1A in CR123 sized lights - and why the electronics redesign necessary to boost current to overdrive the XP-G significantly is a losing proposition. Are you asking HDS to design drivers that will break the included LED, to refactor a proven design, or what?

Indeed, the ability of HDS to provide his warranty service depends on the light not self-destructing even when used unwisely. If an engineer decides your design idea is not in keeping with his ethics, you need a new engineer...or you need a different one anyway, if he will compromise them so easily. If you want a true pocket rocket, get someone to make you such a device. Design for manufacture and reliability insists on staying well within ratings and tolerances.

One example of a no-holds-barred pocket-melter is the Peak Vesuvius I keep on my keychain. The light does NOT get loaned out to the unwary. It looks enough like a normal keychain fob that most people would not look to turn it on. If turned on 'maximum' it will become too hot to hold (While holding it in my hand) in a little over a minute. If not cooled by immersion, it will become too hot to turn off, and then destroy the battery or LED. This light comes with a page-long warning and was a limited run. The QTC pill lets me (very delicately) select dimmer modes, but it exists for one reason - nothing anywhere is brighter in this size class with these features and price.
 
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the.Mtn.Man

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Correct me if I'm woh, ... Wrrr, ... Wroofff, ... Wrooong! Ok said it!

But the high output for an HDS use to be 20 seconds prior to stepping down a notch. The newer models, go for 40 seconds before stepping down!
It was originally 10-seconds. Now it is 40-seconds, but there is also the ability to disable "burst mode" which will let you run at full brightness with no step down but with reduced battery life. Although the brightness could automatically reduce if there is too much heat (yes, HDS flashlights have a heat sensor). This is done to protect the LED.
 

iocheretyanny

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I think this is somewhat a limit on the driver design. Limitation of the creator based on time, money, space, skill, experience may limit what a company can do in terms of brightness. Also a limit on the power source of a CR123 cell. Consider that a regular CR123 driven hard at 1.5Amps is only providing 2.5v x 1.5 A = 3.75W. With a XP-G running around the ~1A area you are looking at a Vf of ~3.2v. Even with 100% efficiency of the driver you only get 3.75W/3.2V = 1.17A. And, not every CR123 out there can handle being run continuously at 1.5A, manage to hold 2.5v and not overheat. Then when you throw a RCR123 in the mix you have some drivers which just go direct drive, some which lose levels, some which are designed with a proper buck, etc.

Interesting, I thought for HDS it is as simple as programming more levels to allow for more lumens, and maybe using the latest LEDs....

Are you saying 200 or 238 lumens is the highest the driver will allow?
 

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