One CR123 1000 lumens?

Hi,

Just a tricky title to drag your attention:naughty:
Well, it's gonna be a common thread. Some questions and thoughts.
After purchased my TK10 and RRT-0 3 years ago I am starting to wonder if there is a real pocket - laser somewhere on the horizon. Well, these mentioned lights are perfect for me as a EDC lights, but of course I want something more, something jaw dropping:thumbsup: I know there are probably plenty of custom lights which probably suit my needs, but I was curious is there something I can count on from branded products as Fenix, Jetbeam or Surefire. One condition here- it has to be one or max two CR123 light. I know there are 500 lumens lights like that but to be honest I don't believe they would make much perception difference. I've set myself a treshlod of 1000 lumens to see a real difference in light power. Still the adds, even these 500 lumens adds, are saying the light is capable of lighting the object of around 200 meters away. What about, let's say, 400 or 500 meters away?
Computers double it's power on average every 1.5 years. Is it the same with LED lights? 3 years ago the top score for one CR123 was 250 lumens. Today some (like Jetbeam for argument's sake) advertise 500 lumens after I've bought my 250 lumens lights three years ago. So will it be 1000 lumens in another 3 years from single 123?
Here's another question. What is the physical limit of a single LED to produce max lumens output? How do you think? Where's the limit?
Sorry, if there was some kind of similar thread on this forum. Just some of my thoughts in this rare free-time moment for me.
Take care

1000 OTF lumen (For a meaningful time interval) from an LED these days translates to around twelve to fifteen watts sustained power and heatsinking to keep the LED quite cool. For shorter times, it still requires 12-15W sustained power. In a small (1xCR123) light, long range AND high output isn't feasible. The high-lux small lights blow off their lumens with the optics or megaflectors needed to produce the beam to reach. The bare-emitter lights just barely reach 1000 lumen per emitter, but have little use beyond twenty meters.

That said, get the E1E triple XP-G2 from TorchLab. You'll have to use 18350 cells, since they can (barely) deliver the needed current.

I think it could be done if the forward current is pulsed. Continuous no, not even close.

Illum said:

I think it could be done if the forward current is pulsed.

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PWM would decrease the output.

Lots of flashlights use this technique to lower output.

Norm

Lummi short orb is advertised at 1000 lumens and will work on an rcr123, I own one and having seen it compared to my xml jetbeam rrt0 I believe the figure to be true. The one slight problem is that it can do 1000lm for about 30 secs tops LOL, it also uses a triple xpg2.
I guess a light that size can do 1000 lumens, but when you consider things like heat build up the reality is that it would be best if they didn't!

apache blue said:

Lummi short orb is advertised at 1000 lumens and will work on an rcr123,

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Pretty sure the Lux-RC light engines need 2 series Li-ion cells to reach full output. So you wont see the full rated output.

The higher output Lux boards are rated at 15W that's roughly 3.75A from one rcr123, well above the safe current draw for that style of battery.

You would need to use an IMR, not sure if a 16340 IMR can supply 3.75A.

Ok I know I'm probably missing something, what have I missed?

Norm

My 450 lumen light looks brighter when looking at something 50 metres away than my 750 lumen light.
I say that loosely as I know that is technically wrong.
Lux and lumens are two different things.
What do you want?

As for the title of the thread; most likely not from a cr123 and as for usability: absolutely useless, that's if you even can with another power source (rcr chemistry variants)..

LEDburn said:

My 450 lumen light looks brighter when looking at something 50 metres away than my 750 lumen light.
I say that loosely as I know that is technically wrong.
Lux and lumens are two different things.
What do you want?

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Well. I'm not a professional, so this is the thing I don't understand - Lux. As for lumens I can have some image in my head as I have Fenix TK10 and Jetbeam RRT-0 and also had 500 lumens light (forgot the brand) and had HID of about 2300 lumens so more or less I can tell how it would look like when I see lumens rating. However I don't entirely got the difference between different lumens' readings as well.
Anyway, as for my thread I meant maybe it will be possible in the future? 3 years ago the highest standard from single cr123 was 250 lumens. Now I am seeing lights with 500 lumens from one 123. Technology is going forward, you know and I am just curious where the limits are... Just don't wanna wait for something what will never exist.

Lux = intensity of light. As I've posted before: Laser = high lux, low lumen, Floodlight = low lux, high lumen.

As for your question. I could probably even get 10,000 lumen from 1 CR123 battery, if I boost and dump all the battery's energy into a large Super or Ultra Cap, and then drive a bunch of LEDs from that. Lets assume a 85% efficient converter and 12 bare Cree XM-Ls at 10W each (~900 lumen each, 10800 lumen total). I'll get 1-1.5 minute of runtime (conservative, almost 2 minutes if the power is extracted efficiently at max output. Of course, the heatsink and circuit sizes would render this light impractical, but it is doable. For 1000 lumen, you'll get 15-20 minutes of runtime.

I think it might even be doable now, just impractical.

Norm said:

Pretty sure the Lux-RC light engines need 2 series Li-ion cells to reach full output. So you wont see the full rated output.

The higher output Lux boards are rated at 15W that's roughly 3.75A from one rcr123, well above the safe current draw for that style of battery.

You would need to use an IMR, not sure if a 16340 IMR can supply 3.75A.

Ok I know I'm probably missing something, what have I missed?

Norm

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The Lux-RC light engines are limited to 2.8A input current, according to the datasheet. Therefore You need two cells run the 10W engine of the Short Orb regulated at full output.

Erzengel said:

Therefore You need two cells run the 10W engine of the Short Orb regulated at full output.

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OK I was estimating on the 14W newer version (which obviously the Lummi would not use) I can't find the spec of.
But my statement still stands, it would not have the full output on one cell.

Norm

The 10W and 14W engine will deliver the same output on one cell. You can find the datasheet of the 334 light engine with some very informative charts on at the buttom of the product page. It also includes one power over input voltage chart.
Back to the topic. 1000 Lumen require about 10W of power at the LED(s). This would mean more than 3 ampere for one cell. If You look at the Surefire Fury runtime graph You see that it is already a challenge to deliver 500 Lumen with two Cr123s. The Thrunite Scorpion holds the 3A LED current for only one minute with two Cr123s, more would overheat the batteries. So it is almost impossible to deliver 1000 lumens with one Cr123 at the current state of the LED technology. It might be possible with 16340 IMR cells if You provide the necessary cooling.

The key issue isn't the LEDs or even the power level. Its the driver.

When you run a high wattage bulb on CR123's, its direct drive. As the cell looses its ability to provide power, the bulb receives less power, and the whole thing comes into a nice safe landing (gradual decline). As the volts decline, so do the watts, keeping a constant amp draw. A board like the Lux RC has a driver built in, who's main job is ensuring that watts/output doesn't drop as the voltage does. As a result, the weaker the cells get (less volts) during a given discharge, the harder the driver pulls energy (more amps) from dying the cell. Its like being expected to run twice as fast during the last mile of a marathon as the first.

1000 lumens from 2x CR123s for the 1st minute isnt a big deal. 1000 from the 10th or 20th minute, is. In the case of 10 watt setup, the cell is near its limits at the start and soon gets overwhelmed during the discharge process, more so with each additional minute. Pulling 10+ watts from a nearly discharged set of CR123's is not safe.

Przemo(c) said:

Anyway, as for my thread I meant maybe it will be possible in the future? 3 years ago the highest standard from single cr123 was 250 lumens. Now I am seeing lights with 500 lumens from one 123. Technology is going forward, you know and I am just curious where the limits are... Just don't wanna wait for something what will never exist.

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It appears that x years = y improvement but the change from 250 (xpg) to 500 (XML) came from a larger LED, not a more advanced one. A theoretical LED with twice the surface are of an XML would double output again, but it's not better tech. It's more flood, more heat, and more power. Its the lighting equivalent of adding cores to a computer processor.

New XPGs will get better than old XPGs (same sizes) and new XMLs will get better than old XMLs (same size), but incrementally so. 10%, maybe 25% more. Not double.

What you want is to prevent buyers remorse. A better approach is a buy/sell/rent program. Buy the new tech when it comes out, sell the old tech, and treat the price difference as a rental fee for the use you enjoyed in the mean time. All you have to do is get a brand with a good resale history. This works with iPads as well as many flashlights.

You're brilliant Electronguru; are you an electrical engineer?


As for the OP's questions:

Quote, "Well. I'm not a professional, so this is the thing I don't understand - Lux".
Lumens vs lux?
Lumens is the total light, in other words - the total volume of light; lux is the intensity only.
Lumens is made up of the intensity in lux multiplied by the surface area of illumination in square meters.
When we talk about light, most people think of intensity in lux, but they forget about "width", in other words, the surface area of illumination.
If two beams of the same intensity, but one is twice as wide as the other, then the wider beam has double the lumens!

The reflector is used to change the lux and surface area of illumination.
A big reflector will generally increase the intensity in lux, at the expense of reducing the surface area of illumination.
Lumens is like the horsepower of a motor car; the emitter is like the engine.
Lux is like the torque.
So a reflector acts like the gearbox.
Just as a big diameter reflector can increase the intensity of the hotspot in lux for greater throw, at the expense of reducing the lateral surface area/size of that hotspot; similarly the motor car's gear box, a low gear increases the torque, at the expense of reducing the rpm speed; the horsepower stays the same, less frictional losses.
A deep reflector reduces the lateral surface area of illumination/spill, by throwing that light into a secondary band of light around the hotspot called a corona, hence normally the deeper the reflector, the narrower the spill, but the brighter the corona.
Low gears give more torque, but less speed; high gears give less torque, but more speed.
Similarly, small reflectors give less intensity, but wider hotspots; while bigger reflectors give greater intensity in lux hotpsots, but smaller hotspot size.
Just as a gearbox cannot increase the horsepower output, a reflector cannot increase the total lumen count.
The horsepower output, and the total lumen count stays the same; albeit less frictional losses, and losses through the inefficiency of the reflector and lens.

Be careful of the word "brightness".
Brightness can denote more total volume in lumens.
Brightness can also denote greater intensity, in other words, more lux.
I prefer to discourage the word brightness, because of this confusion.
Total volume, and intensity are better words.


Quote from OP, "I know there are 500 lumens lights like that but to be honest I don't believe they would make much perception difference. I've set myself a treshlod of 1000 lumens to see a real difference in light power".

Thus, you should be able to notice a "big difference" between the RRT-0 R5/S2 @ 260 lumens, and the RRT-01 XM-L @ some 550 lumens on an 18350 IMR chemistry battery; I have both.
Remember that lumens is made up of the intensity in lux, and the lateral surface area of illumination.
So the RRT-0's hot spot is a brighter for greater throw.
However, the new RRT-01's XM-L has a significantly larger hotspot, a brighter spill, and a wider spill too - hence the 550 lumens on a rapid discharge IMR chemistry 18350 battery
For practical purposes eg lighting up a bedroom, the RRT-01 provides significantly greater illumination than my old disused RRT-0 S2; the old RRT-0's illumination is so narrow, we have to constantly wave the light left to right, and back etc.
The new RRT-01 550 lumens has "width" of illumination; it's not all about intensity in lux and how far we can throw.
The RRT-0 S2 is good for lighting long distances, like up trees to look at possums etc.
You don't need 1000 lumens to see a real difference in light power.


While the bigger emitters have naturally more current draw and extraneous heat production, for naturally greater output and more efficiency, the bigger emitters also have naturally less surface brightness in lux, for naturally less throw.
Also, the run time of an RRT-01 XM-L on a 16340 at max 500 lumen output is already down to just 20 minutes.
So it is possible for a single CR123/16340 to output 1000 lumens, but apart from ridiculously short run time and explosive safety, there is heat build up in a small aluminium mass which will shorten the emitter's life span - so the manufacturers wouldn't want you to be lodging warranty claims because your emitter failed prematurely, or the circuit got fried.
Thus, in 3 years time, I don't think a single CR123/16340's will be outputting 1000 lumens; I think there is a limit - there is a ceiling in development.
We have come a long way from NiCads/NiMH and tungsten/krypton filaments, however it will be tough to make a breakthrough on the current lithium ion battery, and equally tough to make a breakthrough in LED emitters; improvements will only be incremental, as noted by Electronguru above.

So along the lines of ElectronGuru, if there was another emitter size increase from the current XM-L at 3 amps, to something say 9 mm sq @ 6 or 9 amps current draw, there would be great heat production, it would have 1000 lumens and greater efficiency, but less throw, and it would be used in at least a single 18650 power, else a very short run time, plus the extra size/mass can handle the heat; this is too much for a single CR123/16340 to handle.
For example, I don't think I've ever seen a big Luminus SST-90 9 amp emitter powered by a single CR123/16340?

So don't wait for a single CR123/16340 with 1000 lumens - grab the RRT-01 now.
Back in August, there was a dispute between Jetbeam the manufacturer, and the distributor Sysmax; both are based in China.
However, presently Jetbeam both manufactures and distributes directly, stock levels are back, so there should be no more problems with purchase or warranty...

Norm, I'm not an expert in the technical side of lights but if it helps, the short orb primarily runs on an amr 18350, but i can throw a cr123 in there if need be. I think i need to expand my knowledge on the electronic side of things.

apache blue said:

Norm, I'm not an expert in the technical side of lights but if it helps, the short orb primarily runs on an amr 18350, but i can throw a cr123 in there if need be. I think i need to expand my knowledge on the electronic side of things.

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The limiting factor is that it needs two Li-ion cells to reach full output, reading from the spec.

Just found this on the Oveready site (they us the Lux engine)

With a single lithium cell, It will run at approximately 75% output (800+ lumens) in this configuration. These are not regulated on 1 cell.

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peterharvey73 said:

You're brilliant Electronguru; are you an electrical engineer?

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Nope. Ive always been engineer like, but never liked math enough to actually do it myself. In practice, I work best as a technology liaison. Explaining what engineering can/can't achieve to non engineers and figuring out what non engineers want and explaining it to engineers.

Norm said:

Just found this on the Oveready site (they us the Lux engine)

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The latest 15 watt xpg2 configurations are pushing 1200 emitter lumens on a single 18350. But thats still out of reach of a CR123A.

Well, I for one think that it will be possible. It just won't be what we expect - better battery, better led. Somebody will come up with something different at some point and it will change the game. I've been around here since 2001. I remember being impressed with the power of an Arc AAA. Then, I moved into the big leagues with a Longbow Micra in 2004. An amazing 20 lumens with a runtime of 1 hour on a CR123.

Yeah, 1000 lumens on a 123 form factor will happen. Granted it may take a while though until the next big thing comes around, but there's a lot of research in lighting and power these days.

Guy

I'm not really sure who is correct between norm and electronguru, two men who obviously understand the engineering of lights better than I do, but I think we've kind of answered the op's original question. You can certainly get in that region with custom lights, though not for long, I should point out though that these triple xpg's are all flood and not the laser you were looking for.
800-1000 lumen of flood in something smaller than a jetbeam rrt0 is still incredible to see though
I guess what you might want is a lummi, oveready or macs tri edc