Brand New Sony Graphite 17670 Li-Ions For Sale?

Hello all,
This is long, so take a seat.. I am considering selling these new bare cells, but first I need some input from other members.

First the details: /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I have acquired quite a few brand new bare 17670's, Sony #US17670GR. I am keeping enough for all the lights I have and some spares, but I will still have about 80 to sell. Fully charged, they run my L4's for 55-60 min. My L4's run noticeably hotter though due to the fact that with the lower supply voltage, the converter is working harder, thus more heat. The additional heat is the ONLY downside of using these. Feels good to never have to buy 123's again. If I decide to sell them, they will be $5 each plus $5 shipping in the US. If the interest is high, I may put a limit on each person so everyone who wants some gets them. I am not getting rich on these. I didn't get them for free. I don't have use for all of them, but as hard as they are to get, I couldn't pass them up.

Now, my concerns: /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif I need to know the liability involved in selling AND shipping these bare cells. Please don't tell me it's no problem just to get me to sell them. I'm not that stupid. I'm a 40-year-old man with a lot to lose. The reason I am so concerned is this:
I have personally witnessed a lithium battery explosion. The plant that I worked in had a hydraulic press controlled by a PLC. This PLC was mounted in a 12Ga. stainless steel control cabinet about 3ft wide, 5ft tall. Inside the PLC, there was a CR2 battery for memory backup. One day out of nowhere, there was an explosion inside the cabinet that completely blew the door off (ripped off latches and a 5ft long welded piano hinge) and destroyed almost everything inside. There was absolutely nothing left of the PLC to inspect, but the best anyone could figure was the PLC power supply malfunctioned and was slowly charging the battery until kaboom. I am sooooo lucky that I was not working on that machine that day. It is obvious that this group is full of highly intelligent individuals, but there is always someone that seems to screw it up for everyone. Hopefully, that "someone" reads this story and thinks twice about using bare Li-Ions before they have the knowledge and equipment to charge them properly and safely.
Now for the big question. Would I be taking a big risk selling these? Thanks for taking the time to read. I look forward to your responses.

Jeff

I think there is risk here. Even mfrs. take out liability insurance despite overbuildng and overengineering any of their products that have this kind of destructive potential.

I would maybe have an attorney draw up a document of some kind, and require that the buyer have it notarized upon signature, or something similar. Like Murphy's Law says, if it can happen...

I'd probably take 4 of them, I've been using the bare cells for a while now and couldn't be happier. I paid $50 for a quality camcorder charger and have never looked back. I'm no lawyer, but it does seem that you may be exposing yourself to some degree of risk in offering them. It's an unfortunate fact that some people need to be protected from themselves because they are unwilling to accept responsibility for their own actions.

BTW, do these cells have a raised (+) terminal?


Peter

Peter,
The + terminal is "slightly" higher than the surrounding heat shrink. It has no problem contacting the stock solder glob on the L4 head.

Jeff

Despite having used the 18650 size for quite a while, I'm not familiar with the exact size of the 176 series. Could you state that 176 size in mm L x Dia?
Thanks muchly.

Thanks Jeff, That's what I wanted to hear. Assuming that they're new stock, I'd take 4 of them for sure. And I promise not to sue you too. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


Peter

vcal, the answer is in the model designation.
17670= 17 mm. diameter x 67mm. length (nominal).

The 18650's you are using are 18mm. x 65mm. Nice to see a model designation that actually means something. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


Peter

Jeff, the sony US17670GR has been made in various capacities. To you know the capacity of these cells?

JHanko,
I can appreciate your concern regarding the potential civil liability that you may be exposing yourself to. Of primary concern would be the fact that you are communicating this message to so many all over the world. Even if we limit things to the CONUS, all of the states have adopted a long arm statute in one form or another. What this means is that your post could be construed to be an interstate offer by you to sell something to someone in another state which would subject you to the jurisdiction of that other state.

No matter how many waivers you get signed or how many warnings you post, these will not stop you from getting sued. They may help you to prevail once you do get sued, but that will not happen until you've already spent the money to hire an attorney to represent you to present your defense or argument on a Motion for Summary Judgment or Exception.

What it boils down to is this. In a worst case scenario, you could wind up having to retain an out of state attorney to represent you in another state because some bozo blew himself up doing something that you had no control over. It doesn't mean that you'll lose everything that you own, but I would be a major PITA. What you are doing is not the equivalent of a group buy. You are selling these and there is a difference. If you need to move these, I'd choose my buyers. BTW a signed disclaimer is not a bad idea and would go a long way on an "assumption of risk" argument. A cut and pasted disclaimer in the notes section of the paypal form would probably do.

Oh, and I'll take 4. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

to tell ya the truth, it scares me a little to use bare cells.

[ QUOTE ]
JonSidneyB said:
to tell ya the truth, it scares me a little to use bare cells.

[/ QUOTE ]

As well it should, a little fear is a good thing in this case. At the same time, with some common sense precautions, using these is no more dangerous (and probably far less dangerous) than most people's daily commute. A proper charger is the key, and storing the loose cells in an electrically isolated holder to prevent a short is another. As far as I know, that's about it. Is there something else that I'm missing?


Peter

Re: Brand New Sony Graphite 17670 Li-Ions For Sale

I've read horror story about bare Li-Ions... radio control modellers leaving bare cells in their car, when they come back what left is zero..

I've never left any alone when charging, always have a fire extinguisher near me. Even now as I am typing, I am watching the 650ma AA sized Li-Ion charging so I can do a runtime test.

My idea is that the more capacity a cell has the more dangerous it is. Look at petroleum, a little spark means a nice mushroom.

Jeff, you are a thoughtful man, I think you are generous to let the cpf members enjoy the free light. Also, if you put those 80 cells for your own use it will probably be a waste because they degrades slowly, by the time you put them in to service they probably won't have much life left, so best is to sell them off and get some fresh ones. If you are aware and concerned, you can just writeup a liability disclaimer, put it up on the web. Anyone who wish to purchase the cell will have to send you the disclaimer with their signature. That way, you will be quite safe.

We don't have to sign to buy any petrol do we? Or batteries? Using these rechargaebles is very economical and really good for the environment but there are also some safety issue to
consider.


/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sick.gif
Vince.

Re: Brand New Sony Graphite 17670 Li-Ions For Sale

Just how big of an explosions do Li-ions produce?

Re: Brand New Sony Graphite 17670 Li-Ions For Sale

I would buy some, if the capacity is >=1500mAh.
I use bare cells for some time now and I'm very pleased with the performance.
And I'm confident, that I can avoid explosions with proper use /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Re: Brand New Sony Graphite 17670 Li-Ions For Sale

When I charge any battery (NiCadm NiMH, LI, etc), I use the C10 (1/10 capacity) rate based on its capacity. Even tho some of these cells can take a fast charge 4C (4 X capacity) or higher, I don't do so cause I baby my batteries. I also have a lamp timer on my power supply with only the turn off tab in it. This way the timer will terminate the charging session and not turn it back on and cause problems later. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Sorry it is taking so long for my replies, but my job, family and house are demanding much of my time right now. I don't have as much Internet play time as I would like.

Anyway, there are a few things I'd like to mention. I did not tell the lithium battery explosion story to detour people from using them. I was simply explaining the damage potential these cells carry. I'm sure many of you were already aware and many weren't. I encourage the use of these, as I feel the technology is something we should take advantage of. The problem is this: Bare lithium ion cells are not available to consumers for a reason. They have no protection. These cells are used by millions of people everyday in laptops, cameras, phones, etc., but they are in packs with what might be considered "overkill" protection circuits. If you ever disassembled a laptop battery pack, you would find over-current protection, thermal protection and multimode over-voltage protection monitoring each cell individually, all designed in fail safe mode so any un-ideal conditions will prevent the pack from taking any charge. On top of that you have the charging circuit in the device using the pack that will have voltage and current protection designed to shut down the circuit if anything abnormal is detected. You may ask, "why so much protection for a battery"? The reason is this: EVERYTHING ELECTRONIC WILL FAIL! It is inevitable. You can go out and buy the latest, greatest electronic doohickey that money can buy and it will malfunction. Guaranteed. It may take 6 months, 5 years, 20 years, you never know. I will use LitFuse's situation as an example. I saw a picture of his charger setup. Very nice and very responsible. He went and bought one of the best universal Li-Ion chargers money can buy, mounted a nice battery socket on top and life is good. But... What will happen when that charger malfunctions, and it WILL malfunction. It may be 50 years from now, it may be tomorrow. Two probable failure modes would be: #1) the unit dies and stops charging and #2) the protection circuit fails and does not stop at 4.2 volts. Failure mode #2 would be extremely dangerous with a bare cell. In that case, I certainly wouldn't want it sitting on the passenger seat while I'm driving. Now if this charger went into failure mode #2 while charging a camcorder battery, the battery pack's protection circuit would sense the charger's over-voltage malfunction and "disconnect" the cells, no harm done. Manufacturers are covering their asses by piggybacking two completely different protection circuits. I have never heard of any Li-Ion laptop batteries ever exploding, but I have seen several charging circuit failures and several battery pack circuit failures. The fact that these two completely different protection circuits would have to fail at exactly the same time pretty much eliminates any possibility of danger.

MR Bulk: Thanks for the advice. I just can't justify attorney costs on this. I would be better off throwing these away and working 2 hours overtime instead.

vcal: LitFuse answered your question perfectly.

Doug S: Sorry, I do not know the capacity of these. My Sony documentation shows a G3,G3D and G4D suffix, ranging from 1450-1550 mAh. None of those suffix's are on these cells.

Chop: Thanks for the insight. The fact that I am communicating this message to so many all over the world doesn't bother me so much. I am looking for information, not a loophole in the system.

JonSydneyB: Don't be afraid of them, just aware of them.

koala: I have also read stories about RC modelers using these. There is quite a difference between them and us though. They are using these batteries to drive motors that can draw massive current, generating heat in the cell. From what I understand, they put them in their cars to cool down before the next charging cycle. Maybe this a protective measure for themselves and innocent bystanders...

V8TOYTRUCK: I don't know how big a Li-Ion explosion is. I have only witnessed a non-rechargable lithium battery explosion, but the chemistry between the two is very similar so I would expect similar results. The battery that I saw explode was smaller than the ones I have now. For comparison, I'll give you this: When I was young and stupid(I'm not young anymore), I made fireworks(I did have a binary explosives permit) and I can say that the battery did the damage of at least 1/2 stick of dynamite.

mrsinbad: All I can say is WOW! Your idea of using that timer is one of the most creative, responsible things I have read lately. You have successfully(regardless of the cost, quality, simplicity) piggybacked another protection device into you charging rig to protect against charger malfunction. Great job!

Sorry this has gotten so long.

I found this website selling bare Li-Ions with $2.95 shipping.
http://www.slavin4u.com/lithium.html#
They are based in the US, but their site looks a lot like Sabah Oceanic's. How are they getting away with selling these on the web to consumers?

One last thing. I am still undecided on selling these. I am very curious to find out how "Slavin4u" is selling these so boldly as if there is no liability whatsoever.

Talk to you guys soon...

Jeff

JHanko,
I've just re-read my post and you must take it with a grain of salt. Being in the business that I am in has caused me to adopt a very conservative way of thinking, always putting things in terms of the worst case scenario.

The truth of the matter is that I doubt that anyone in the CPF community would take any action against you due to a lack, on their part, of taking the proper precautions. The use of bare cells is a subject that has been discussed at long lengths here on CPF. I think that all here are aware of the risks and are willing to assume them.

at minimum i would include a care and feeding sheet that shows the hazards of li ions.
i work with them every day and while old ones were kinda touchy the newer ones are much better protected.
pressure switches,vents,thermisters ect.