Surprised no Arc 5W offering yet.

This is sort of a cafe type post but giving the past although brief history, I'm surprised Arc doesn't have a 5W LS offering yet. They were the first to offer a AAA LED light as well as the first to offer an LS light. The LS4 when finally released will be despite the advanced features, still a 1W offering amongst many now. Likewise the proposed LS5 is not going to be that revolutionary compared to what we already have now.

I think a revolutionary product would be for Arc to come out with either a 3W or 5W regulated offering in a single (at least as an option) 123 battery pack, although not as bright as if with 6V, still much brighter then a current LS. I realize of course it would have to be under driven. Thus far the best we have is to *******ize a KL4 so it runs unregulated in a single 123 E1 body. I remember a post in which Peter was glowing over how well he liked his prototype 5W Luxeon in a single CR123 body.

Just my opinions on a cold November Friday night. I still will most likely buy the LS4 upon release.

not to speak for peter, but i believe he is waiting on better 5w luxeons...

Given the tint variations etc., the same could be said for the 1 watters.

the 5watters are still rated for a much lower life expecancy. furthermore, even if they were equal to the 1w in that respect, i'm guessing peter would rather wait for the new chassis anyway.

There *has* been an Arc 5 watter, called the LS3. It was a horrible failure, which is unlike Arc. They only made about 50 because they just didn`t work out right. They ran on two CR123 cells with no AA option and were only driven at around 2 watts because of thermal issues. The beams were wide, irregular and quite green thanks to the early 5 watters and the inadequacies of the NX05 optics used in conjunction with them.


Being an Arc collector, and almost a completist at that, I was dissapointed not to have been able to get one despite their general lack of greatness. I`m still looking of course....

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Chris M. said:
There *has* been an Arc 5 watter, called the LS3. They only made about 50 because they just didn`t work out right. The beams were wide, irregular and quite green thanks to the early 5 watters and the inadequacies of the NX05 optics used in conjunction with them.

Being an Arc collector, and almost a completist at that, I was dissapointed not to have been able to get one despite their general lack of greatness. I`m still looking of course....


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Hi Chris,

I had an LS3. The only things wrong with the LS3 were the Luxeons and the cost. $200.00 was a lot of money to pay for a less than stellar product. The Battery fit was a little sloppy also but, it was the first and it was bright. I sold it to a collecter a couple of days later for the same price I paid for it. Basically I got to have, hold and experience at no cost.

Just a personal thought, how about a basic five watter in about the $100.00 price range? The Arc AA from inception to delivery was only a few months. Arc has done the five watter, why not recoup that groundwork and bring out a product that would have an immediate appeal to a larger audience.

At under a hundred bucks this could be a big seller. Get them down to $79 or even $89 and you start coming into premium and gift giving range.

Dare to be "Great" Peter. The Shot Show is just a few months away. I am going this (Next?) year and look forward to seeing some revolutionary products from Arc. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Skip the 5W,
Take a Luxeon III and use the LS4 curcuits to run it at 800mA for a short while until the thermal sensor scales back the output. Throw a Fraen Low Profile in the head for a long throw option.
The LS III's are running at a rating of TWAK (75 lumens) at 700mA. An Arc LS with the III will outblast a Surefire L4 with no problems. I expect to see something in the next few months.

ARC was the 1st manufacturer to offer a 5-watt light. It was called the LS3. Do to the availability of quality luxeons at the time, Peter decided to pull the product.

In my experience the LS 5 watters are much less waivering in color temp and output than the very fickle 1 watters. The 5 watters of today are also much better than when the LS3's were made. I also have to agree on the price point..
$200 bucks is Waaaay overpriced. If that is the required cost Peter needed to charge to break even, then something is wrong... if not, it was simply charging to much... IMHO many will pay it however... so kudos for ARC there... get what the market will bear... just not me.
I would want a good 5watt LS light for around $100 - $125.

I think the LS3 suffered the "greenies" due to driving it at around 2 watts. IF you modded an LS3 today upto 700-800ma.. I bet they would be pretty white.. (albeit a short runtime light due to thermal issues, but white none the less.)

ARC's quality is awesome.. but I cannot see how they can ever get to a 5watt solution until they adress the thermal issues of their design....
I have a 5watt KL1 that was built by CM that runs at 668ma on an E2e... No thermal issues to speak of and very cool white... If something the size of a KL1 can do it, why could ARC not design some fins or clever body to pull the heat?

I may be going into never never land here but I still have not seen any manufacturer or modder pulse an LS at such a frequency to increase voltage\lumins vs. temperature\current and still remain a "constant on" light ... with no visable flicker to the user.

Just a thought.

Btw, I am not really trying to make the brightest LED flashlight. My goal is to make an ideal EDC. I can tell you right now, that will probably never involve a flashlight running at 5 watts.

Once I feel like we have serviced the EDC goal sufficiently, we may produce other types of flashlights. But EDC is the main focus of Arc design.

From time to time, we may produce an accessory that makes one of our EDCs perform in the "Mission" class. For those that don't know, Mission is what we call the next size up from EDC.

Fins are usually not a good thing for an EDC. The purpose of fins is to improve radiation of heat to the surrounding area. There are better ways though. I don't want to reveal any secrets, but there is a reason we don't use fins. If you want fins, go buy a SF. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The structure of our LS flashlight is already moving heat quite well. We continue to improve this with each model. At a point, you simply need more mass and surface area for a given power level. Back to my first point.

For a given visibility, pulsing an LS at a flicker free frequency will make it and the power supply hotter, not cooler. There is a lot about this already written. Basically, the human eye functions as an integrator.

The LS5 will use a 5 watt emitter but be optimized as an EDC. It can produce a full 5 watts if it needs to. However, I believe it is best as an EDC when it is not using it's full power all the time.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Btw, we will be using the 500 hr 5w emitters in the LS5. Lumileds has said it may be another year before they extend the life beyond that. However, as an EDC, we believe we can extend the life of the emitter past 5000 hours by more precisely controlling the die chip temperature. So, I have no problem with applying our standard 10 year warranty.

Peter

More thoughts...

I find it interesting that Lumileds revised the lumen maintanance figures for the 5watt 3 times. 100k, 1k and then 500 hours. This probably was a result of finding that the parts were degrading faster they originally anticipated.

However, this has not stopped several manufacturers from going ahead and producing flashlights running the emitter at full or close to full power. The heat of the LED and not the power level determines its life. And some 5 watt flashlights get quite hot.

Now, either one of two things will happen: Those units will either last their warranty or fail prematurely. Btw, I think the manufacturer of the LED (Lumileds) has a pretty good handle on what their part can do.

If they fail prematurely, you either have people who are upset or people who knew the risks and had no problem spending $100+ on a light that only lasted a couple of years. Yes, some people upgrade their flashlights as often as their computers, but a manufacturer should not design a unit with planned obsolesence in mind. That is bad in my book.

Larger housings will help cool the LED and improve life. Life of the LED can be extended beyond the 500 hours by running it cooler than 25c. However, a 5 watt LED run at full power can get quite hot without much warning. I personally believe anyone who is buying a 5w LED flashlight without a tempurature sensor or VERY large heatsink should know they have a disposable light. Either that, Lumileds is wrong and everything will be just fine. Everyone has to make the call on their own because it is their money.

Knowing this, you can see why I just have to smile when people ask why Arc is not currently manufacturing a 5 watt LED flashlight. I have a problem with the concept on so many levels...

We like the 5w LED (not the 5w power level) because it is gives us a very good light denisity when driven at lower levels. It also has a life span that we believe is practical. 5000 hours works out to over 1 hour a day for 10 years. We are upfront with this and will continue to be.

Unless mfgs start using a very large heatsink (huge), or a precise temperature sensor, the LS5 may very well be the most durable light using the 5w emitter.

Add that to the mix..

Peter

Simply awesome sir.
I could not have been educated on so many levels as you just did for me by anyone else. (insert bowing "we're not worthy" smiley face here)
You point on the EDC concept is well taken and I do carry the great LSH-P in my pocket when I want a small bright light and I carry a modded ARC AA on my keyring. When I need a small vs. powerfull light to use, the LSH-P is hard to beat.. In fact I have not found another light yet that can do it at that size. The only thing I have found that is close would be the KL1.. but it is bigger and not as bright and warm centered.

The other good point that I was unaware of was the frequency having to be too high and causing more heat from the electronics. That part did not strike me at first... What frequency would you drive an LS to reduce temp and keep the specd lumin output and reduce temp and effiency if the electronics were not a factor?
Above 200 300 mhz? I guess if you spun the light around eraticly, you could catch traces of flicker but I wonder where the happy medium would be?

If you ever do a larger 5w light as a full time light, I am sure it will impress. I will also most likly be getting on of your LS4's when they are out if I can dig up the Ca$h. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif (yes I am part of the "market will bear folks.)

P.S. not trying to hijack the thread or anything.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif but please consider a 1W AAA or AA. I had mine modded by "LED mods As Small As Possible" and it is simply the best EDC keyring light that I have ever used. IMHO /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif