Idiot lumen/cd question...

eusty

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OK, I kind of get the idea between the two but there is something I can't understand...

I've a couple of Xtar TZ20 (XM-L U2) and a Fenix TK35 (XM-L T6) which are both rated at 820 lumens.

The TK35 throws and floods better which is not surprising as it's got a far bigger reflector. But the thing I can't understand is it has 27k cd or so, while the TZ20 is only 7.7k.

I've been looking about and found this, this and this, but I can't seem to get my head around it. There must be something simple I'm missing??? Shouldn't torches be measured in luminous intensity(cd)?

Please be gentle.....:thinking:
 

dc38

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OK, I kind of get the idea between the two but there is something I can't understand...

I've a couple of Xtar TZ20 (XM-L U2) and a Fenix TK35 (XM-L T6) which are both rated at 820 lumens.

The TK35 throws and floods better which is not surprising as it's got a far bigger reflector. But the thing I can't understand is it has 27k cd or so, while the TZ20 is only 7.7k.

I've been looking about and found this, this and this, but I can't seem to get my head around it. There must be something simple I'm missing??? Shouldn't torches be measured in luminous intensity(cd)?

Please be gentle.....:thinking:
Hi Eusty, WELCOME TO CPF!

The easiest way I can think to describe the difference between lumens and cd/m is with a water analogy. Think of Light as Water, and imagine the flashlight to be a spout. The reflector is the nozzle that controls the path and flow of the light. Now, lumens are a "qualitative" measurement of light volume; 750 lumens is brighter than 350 lumens, the sheer output is overall greater. Beam intensity, cd/m or lux is a measure of intensity, the luminous equivalent of "pressure". A gallon of water splashed is much less pressure than the same gallon of water hitting you at once in a focused jet. Since photons have no mass, pressure doesn't really apply, it's basically the volume of light per area. A 300 lumen light could be super focused with 20k lux, and a 500 lumen light could be diffuse and only have 5 k lux. IRL, deft flashlights vs. jetbeam pc10. Lux is usually synonymous with throw, the higher the lux rating, the more intensely the light source is being produced. A decent way to be sure of what light is brighter than another is to pick up diffusers, and light up a space with each light, one at a time.
 
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StarHalo

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The reflector is what creates the beam hotspot, by taking light coming off the side of the emitter and throwing it forward. The spillbeam is the light from the front of the emitter radiating freely out of the head of the flashlight, unreflected. Bigger reflector = more light captured to throw forward = more throw.
 

mvyrmnd

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Just like this :)

uby5eqyd.jpg


The yellow lines are the "spill", the green lines are the "hotspot"

Led's work best in a deep/wide reflector, as the output angle can be quite narrow. A shallow/wide reflector won't channel as much light into the hotspot.
 

tatasal

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In the ceiling of my house I have common household CFL lamp, rated at 760 lumens. It disperses light 360 degrees all around, all 760 lumens of it, but will illuminate only the nearby area (low lux number). In effect, although its output is 760 lumens, it has a low lux figure since there is no reflector to 'collect' all those lumens into a tiny intense 'hotspot' that will make it throw far, of which increases its lux figure.

That's why 'long-throw' flashlights have lower lumen output since it 'ilLUMENates' only the small area where its hotspot hits plus only the area very near it (spill), but will have a higher lux figure.
 
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eusty

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Hi Eusty, WELCOME TO CPF!

The easiest way I can think to describe the difference between lumens and cd/m is with a water analogy. Think of Light as Water, and imagine the flashlight to be a spout. The reflector is the nozzle that controls the path and flow of the light. Now, lumens are a "qualitative" measurement of light volume;

OK I 'think' I might have it... lumens is the power of the light, how much comes out of it, lux is basically what the flashlight does with that light, throw (high cd) or flood (low cd)?
 

mvyrmnd

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OK I 'think' I might have it... lumens is the power of the light, how much comes out of it, lux is basically what the flashlight does with that light, throw (high cd) or flood (low cd)?

That's it :)
 

TEEJ

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OK I 'think' I might have it... lumens is the power of the light, how much comes out of it, lux is basically what the flashlight does with that light, throw (high cd) or flood (low cd)?

You're on the right track.

I'll add that they are measuring different things though.


Lumens are, as you did get, a measurement of the TOTAL light the LED is making/sending out. You can't SEE lumens.

Lux is actually a measure of the light that is reflected BACK at your eyes. This is what you CAN see.

The next part is how we USE the numbers. Strictly speaking, there would be lux measurements that could be taken at any part of what the light is shined onto...and all would represent ITS PART of the total LUMEN out put that reflected back to your eye.

To STANDARDIZE how to express the ability of the light to throw...we use the lux at one meter, taken at the BRIGHTEST/highest lux reading of the beam.

Lux at one meter = cd

That makes a comparison easier.

In real life....the ACTUAL lux at one meter might not BE the brightest part of the beam...as there is a a FOCUS involved. So, for a light that throws far, the real bright POINT might be at 10 meters, or 15 meters, etc....further out where the PARTS of the beam made by the reflector, converge. So, we (If doing this correctly) find where the beam converges, and measure the lux THERE.

We then take the lux at whatever THAT distance was, and back calculate to a EQUIVALENT lux at one meter. This means the lux at one meter number USED is NOT the REAL lux at one meter. Its the lux at one meter that would work if we wanted to CALCULATE the lux at OTHER distances, say to 1,000 meters, etc....and the number that converts to the cd.

:D


Take all THAT, and then absorb that that beam might be a foot across, or 10' across....and have the same cd.

As described further above, think of the lux on the target as the DEPTH of the water pooled there by the light hose.

If ALL your total lumens were marched out the hose to that target, it could glow very brightly (Have a high lux number)...in a very small, but deep pool.

If you wanted to spread the lumens out more, to light up a larger AREA, you can't make them as DEEP.

If you imagine an ordinary coke bottle, 1 liter....full of coke...and pour it into a glass, it might be a few inches across (The diameter of the glass) but 10" deep, etc.

Take the same coke and pour it on the kitchen floor, and you might have a puddle several feet in diameter, maybe the entire floor, but only a millimeter deep, etc.

So, "flooding" the kitchen floor to a depth of 10" might take thousands of liters, but making it wet might only take ONE liter.

:D

As you know things further away are dimmer...just add that if its twice as far away, it will be one QUARTER as bright (lux).

The ANSI standard uses 0.25 lux as the range definition...so the light's throw is how many meters to get down to 0.25 lux.


So, that's how they CALCULATE the throw.

The inverse square law is used to DO that math.

As we use the RANGE that the lux falls to 0.25 lux...to solve for...we are using the 0.25 lux to divide by.

If we want to simplify the equation, you take the square root of the cd (the lux at 1 meter), multiply it by 2, and THAT's the range in meters. (To hit 0.25 lux)

If the light's cd is 100k, the square root of 100k = 316

Multiply that by 2, and we get 632 meters as the throw for that light to 0.25 lux.
 
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silentlurker

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Good explanations so far. Let me add that lumens measures the total output which is why we tend to focus on it more here at CPF. The same way more horsepower generally means more power in a car, more lumens means more light coming from a flashlight. The more light the flashlight produces, the better at illuminating things it will be.

Candelas are a measure of intensity. Since the intensity of a beam depends on how the light from the flashlight is used, it's not a good metric to compare one light to another. A high candela rating means that the light is very focused. Lasers have very high candela ratings, much higher than any regular flashlight because they have all of their photons focused in a tight beam. You wouldn't think to rely on on a laser to light up a room, though, even though it's candela rating is much higher than even a very bright flashlight.
 

eusty

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Makes sense apart from the TZ20 seems a more focused light than the TK35?

I guess it's the fact that although the TK35 seems less focused to my eyes (i.e. more flood) the measurements say different.

Sent using Tapatalk 2.
 
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