Headlamp general question

thecyclops · Jan 14, 2013

1st please excuse my extreme noob-ness on this issue,so here goes...
Could someone please explain to me the difference/advantages/disadvantages to flood vs spot?
I just bought a 70 lumen 2013 Black Diamond cosmo,and I also have an inexpensive 90 lumen coleman "tactical" to compare it to.
The coleman will easily light up my neighbors garage from 15+ yards away,yet my Cosmo wont even begin to even reach it.Now from what I understand hikers/runners will prefer this type of flood over a regular LED flashlight and I bought it for that purpose(Im a runner) On the surface I think I would prefer running with the type of light the coleman produces,but I have yet to truly field test the Cosmo running/hiking with my eyes adjusted,but I have used the coleman for hiking and I liked it.
So is it just a personal preference?
Thanks,and if you laugh at this question I can handle it

EDIT-Im also blind in my left eye (check my screen name),so maybe Im not the best at discerning the subtle nuances between these two...

degarb · Jan 14, 2013

If I paint, drywall patch, sand, clean glue from a joint, thread tiny screws, work on a pc, or walk down the street, or finding a particular object in a messy area, vaccuming floors, washing floors, cleaning up wife's dog's pee in the house, I like as much throw as possible. Runtime is always better if you have more throw per watt than needed. Throw is essential, flood a luxury of available juice. Flood, also, is really redundant for task lighting where electric is available.

As you know jogging (never did this), following bouncy ball is not good. Folding laudry, backing off and checking for ghost in paint film, organizing an area, sitting around a campsite, and definitely reading, I like flood.

Buy both. Or a throwy with detachable reflector, or throwy with a diffuser.

uk_caver · Jan 14, 2013

It's not 'just' a personal preference - much comes down to the particular tasks, and the particular outputs available in flood or spot beams.

Personally I use pure flood (or flood with relatively limited additional spot) for most of my headlamp uses (caving, walking, camping, working), but I tend to use lamps where I have both flood and spot (and various blends) available when needed, so I don't have any problems from lack of spot.

If I was forced to use a light with a fixed beam blend, I'd probably choose something more spot-biased than I would want to use most of the time, since there are times when I do need to look a long way.
But I'd really be frustrated by the lack of flood.

degarb · Jan 14, 2013

uk_caver said:
It's not 'just' a personal preference - much comes down to the particular tasks, and the particular outputs available in flood or spot beams.

Personally I use pure flood (or flood with relatively limited additional spot) for most of my headlamp uses (caving, walking, camping, working), but I tend to use lamps where I have both flood and spot (and various blends) available when needed, so I don't have any problems from lack of spot.

If I was forced to use a light with a fixed beam blend, I'd probably choose something more spot-biased than I would want to use most of the time, since there are times when I do need to look a long way.
But I'd really be frustrated by the lack of flood.

I think another thing to clarify is the desired minimal runtime and maximum battery size and format allowable.

To me, I demand 8 hours for work (prefer 10h). My price range (sub $100) has limited me to one 18650 or 4 aa battery format. Thus, 1 to 1.25 watt is my maximum allowable from a 9 to 12 watt hour battery. The rest is math concerning minimal lux (depending on the task), which spreads the available lumens over the largest area possible.

If a four 18650 battery pack were my thing, it would change my beam pattern preference.

thecyclops · Jan 14, 2013

Thanks guys,I think Im getting a clear picture here.Thats where I was confused I suppose...So I should throw my Black Diamond in the trash and buy a better one with spot/flood capabilities,got it!!! :twothumbs No Im JK,Thanks for the quick responses...And I THOUGHT I had a great headlamp in the black diamond,but upon looking around this forum I see I have an entry level headlamp at best,I still like it though.

dougie · Jan 15, 2013

I've found flood far more useful than spot for a myriad of reasons but recognise that there are some tasks that really need both. Although, I haven't got one yet I'm definitely thinking of getting a Petzl Nao. The combination of a light which automatically senses when you look down at a map or the ground and instantly drops into a flood mode but then goes back into throw mode when you look up along a track or road etc is priceless. Unlike other systems the Nao is constantly being praised for how well it works and for the ability for the user to set it up how they want using your pc. In addition it uses a rechargeable battery so is pretty cheap to run. It's not exactly cheap but then it isn't overly expensive for what it is either. At least it would solve your dilemma over which is best?

tubed · Jan 15, 2013

Lately, i 've spent a lot of time telling folks about the Fenix HL21. It has both flood and throw, is not expensive ($34), cheap on batteries (1xAA) and is light. ( i can't speak to run times- they probably stink given its one battery).
It has a high of 90 lumens and with the diffuser flipped down it lights up the area around me with a very good flood. With the diffuser flipped up its got a tight beam that throws a good 50 yards. The only weakness of the light as i see it is that the built-in diffuser cap is flimsy and probably won't hold up to real rigous use.
For jogging at night -it seems like it could be a good light. Use with the diffuser to see all around you and 10 feet in front of yo u. When needed, flip up the diffuser and see 50 yards a head. Alternatively, the high is so bright that even without the diffuser on -if you look down and in front, it lights up a big area.

thecyclops · Jan 16, 2013

tubed said:
Lately, i 've spent a lot of time telling folks about the Fenix HL21. It has both flood and throw, is not expensive ($34), cheap on batteries (1xAA) and is light. ( i can't speak to run times- they probably stink given its one battery).
It has a high of 90 lumens and with the diffuser flipped down it lights up the area around me with a very good flood. With the diffuser flipped up its got a tight beam that throws a good 50 yards. The only weakness of the light as i see it is that the built-in diffuser cap is flimsy and probably won't hold up to real rigous use.
For jogging at night -it seems like it could be a good light. Use with the diffuser to see all around you and 10 feet in front of yo u. When needed, flip up the diffuser and see 50 yards a head. Alternatively, the high is so bright that even without the diffuser on -if you look down and in front, it lights up a big area.

Thanks for all the responses.I have had a few times to test the Black Diamond Cosmo now and I REALLY like it.Not a lot of throw,but really lights up everything nicely.I think next on my list is the 277 lumen petzyl.

dparr · Jan 16, 2013

The Energizer Micro LED headlight has served me well for a number of years.

Make sure that you get the upgraded "blue" one. The older "yellow" ones had bad connection problems.

It comes with a lifetime warranty, has ramping brightness levels and is very comfortable on my head.

thecyclops · Jan 16, 2013

dparr said:
The Energizer Micro LED headlight has served me well for a number of years.

Make sure that you get the upgraded "blue" one. The older "yellow" ones had bad connection problems.

It comes with a lifetime warranty, has ramping brightness levels and is very comfortable on my head.

I have the blue one,7-LED energizer 58 lumen,and its pretty good.However my friend has the next step up,a 5 LED 70 lumen energizer,and sad to say,but it blows my Black Diamond 70 lumen cosmo away in distance,maybe not in build quality,but in performance/throw...Here is a video comparing the black diamond cosmo I have against my aforementioned 7 LED blue energizer...

eh4 · Jan 17, 2013

Definitely don't trash your light whatever you end up doing. You can donate it, give it to a friend, keep it as a spare... to eventually give away to someone in need (load it with lithium batteries for worry free storage) or for when you develops the itch to get into modding lights.

thecyclops · Jan 18, 2013

eh4 said:
Definitely don't trash your light whatever you end up doing. You can donate it, give it to a friend, keep it as a spare... to eventually give away to someone in need (load it with lithium batteries for worry free storage) or for when you develops the itch to get into modding lights.

No,not gonna throw it away,LOL!!! I actually like the light quite a bit,great,bright white light but just doesnt have any throw,err,not too much of it...Perhaps by design.I have played with it,but not really took it into the woods or on a night run so I still have to field test it.

TEEJ · Jan 18, 2013

For a headlamp, you are mostly doing tasks, jogging, hiking, and for close work, flood is always more useful...as it just makes what you are looking at lit up.

If the headlamp is too weak lumen-wise, that can make the flooded area dimmer, as opposed to the same weak lumen out put being more concentrated to get more throw/make a small spot brighter instead of a whole room lighter, etc.

When a weak beam is concentrated into a smaller hot spot, it can look bright in a small circle of light. This gives you tunnel vision, and its like seeing what's out there through a paper towel tube view. Making the beam tight like that is a compromise done to get as much brightness as possible by putting all the lumens in a small area.

Of course, a stronger light requires more power, and, typically, adds weight, etc. The next compromise is how MUCH added weight is OK to get hw MUCH added light, and so forth. This is a highly subjective balancing act, with no universally correct answer...as everyone's needs and comfort factors are different.

thecyclops · Jan 18, 2013

TEEJ said:
For a headlamp, you are mostly doing tasks, jogging, hiking, and for close work, flood is always more useful...as it just makes what you are looking at lit up.

If the headlamp is too weak lumen-wise, that can make the flooded area dimmer, as opposed to the same weak lumen out put being more concentrated to get more throw/make a small spot brighter instead of a whole room lighter, etc.

When a weak beam is concentrated into a smaller hot spot, it can look bright in a small circle of light. This gives you tunnel vision, and its like seeing what's out there through a paper towel tube view. Making the beam tight like that is a compromise done to get as much brightness as possible by putting all the lumens in a small area.

Of course, a stronger light requires more power, and, typically, adds weight, etc. The next compromise is how MUCH added weight is OK to get hw MUCH added light, and so forth. This is a highly subjective balancing act, with no universally correct answer...as everyone's needs and comfort factors are different.

I see..I just dont understand why a reputable company like Black Diamond would advertise this as a spot and flood(The 2 small LEDS on the outside are supposed to be the flood,and the center the spot) when it just doesnt throw very far....NOT disappointed with it per say,as the flood works great and the build is great as is the looks of it.I suppose my only issue is I like seeing a good ways when Im hiking at night,especially by myself,running Im sure will be A-OK.And general tasks,as you said its stupid bright around the house and in fact kind of just lights up a whole room when on.

TEEJ · Jan 18, 2013

Throw is a relative term. Beam angle would be a better descriptive term for it really, but few makers list it.

Its also relative because a very throwy 70 lumen light might only throw a 100 meters or so, but a very floody 2,000 lumen light might throw 400 meters (FURTHER than the "throwy" light), and so forth.

So its a bit like kids and baseballs. If your kid is 5 years old and can throw the ball from home to 2nd, he has a great arm....but if that's all he can do when he's 25 years old, well, he has a weak arm.

A weak light (Low lumens) will tend to use a narrower beam angle to concentrate the little light it pumps out into a smaller brighter patch...a "throwy" profile.

A stronger light can throw just as far or further, but light up a wider area at once, etc.

Headlamps in general, due to the form factors involved, tend to have trouble with distance, as that typically requires a larger head. (The wider and deeper the reflector, the better the light tends to be at distance)

So flood is both easier to get and generally more useful anyway for a headlamp. When they try for throw, its a question of degree...and, its typically severely compromised by the head and associated power supply limitations associated with a headlamp form factor.

This is why some headlamps use a remote power source, say on your waist or arm, corded to the light, etc.

Flooding brightly enough to also get a lot of range takes a lot of lumens, and a small, light headlamp is challenged by that.

Focusable systems attempt to compensate by taking the weak out put that normally floods a wider area, and, when needed, allowing you to narrow the beam angle to try to see further off, etc.

thecyclops · Jan 18, 2013

TEEJ said:
Throw is a relative term. Beam angle would be a better descriptive term for it really, but few makers list it.

Its also relative because a very throwy 70 lumen light might only throw a 100 meters or so, but a very floody 2,000 lumen light might throw 400 meters (FURTHER than the "throwy" light), and so forth.

So its a bit like kids and baseballs. If your kid is 5 years old and can throw the ball from home to 2nd, he has a great arm....but if that's all he can do when he's 25 years old, well, he has a weak arm.

A weak light (Low lumens) will tend to use a narrower beam angle to concentrate the little light it pumps out into a smaller brighter patch...a "throwy" profile.

A stronger light can throw just as far or further, but light up a wider area at once, etc.

Headlamps in general, due to the form factors involved, tend to have trouble with distance, as that typically requires a larger head. (The wider and deeper the reflector, the better the light tends to be at distance)

So flood is both easier to get and generally more useful anyway for a headlamp. When they try for throw, its a question of degree...and, its typically severely compromised by the head and associated power supply limitations associated with a headlamp form factor.

This is why some headlamps use a remote power source, say on your waist or arm, corded to the light, etc.

Flooding brightly enough to also get a lot of range takes a lot of lumens, and a small, light headlamp is challenged by that.

Focusable systems attempt to compensate by taking the weak out put that normally floods a wider area, and, when needed, allowing you to narrow the beam angle to try to see further off, etc.

OK,Im picking up what you're putting down

Im gonna do another direct comparison with a friends "energizer 5 LED 70 lumen"to see the differences.It says it can throw 250 ft or 77 meters and mine wont even come close.Same lumens,same price range so what gives?

uk_caver · Jan 18, 2013

Even beam angle can be a tricky thing when it comes to comparison, especially when subjectivity gets involved.

I have homebuilt headlamps with both reflector and TIR optic spot beams, and at least for them, angle-based descriptions could be misleading. The reflector-based beam is fairly flat right up to the sharp cutoff at the edge, whereas the optic-based one is much softer-edged - if comparing by the typical FWHM criteria (where the angle is based on where the beam is half its peak central intensity), the beams might be similar in angle while the optic-based one is much wider in practice.

Also, as a subjective issue, when comparing the two beams both with a lightmeter and in use, the reflector-based one can seem as bright as the optic-based one even when it has about half the peak intensity when measured on the meter, presumably down to things like having a hard edge with the nearby darkness making the active area of the beam seem brighter.

TEEJ · Jan 18, 2013

Very true.

I don't like TIR as often, due to that tunnel vision effect....the beam looks like those search light spots sweeping the ground in every prison break movie....the ones where the escapee sees the beam coming, ducks until it passes by, and then runs again.

Headlamp general question

thecyclops

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degarb

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uk_caver

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degarb

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thecyclops

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dougie

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tubed

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thecyclops

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dparr

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thecyclops

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eh4

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thecyclops

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TEEJ

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thecyclops

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TEEJ

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thecyclops

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uk_caver

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TEEJ

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