NiteCore's lumens ratings consistently overstated?

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Badbeams3

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Yea, several companies seem to be off...don`t know what to make of it...and some that seemed to be under before...are now over rating on some models. I would expect some variation...but seems to be a growing...issue/trend.

Maybe their trying to stretch to gain sales...maybe there taking a group of samples and picking the higher numbers in there claims...instead of the lower samples. Or maybe their not running actual tests, but rather, using info provided by Cree, their driver and reflector manufactures and applying mathematical formulas. Honestly believing the math should match up to their stated lumen numbers...and actual output...who knows..
 
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Norm

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ledmitter_nli

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CarpentryHero

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Surefire has a long history and reputation, they don't understate there lumens so much as its originally comes out at one output and as improvements are made they leave it understated till the next model comes out.

As for Nitecore, there outputs were accurate in the past, I've owned a D10, D11.2, Ex10, D20, and now a Nitecore EC25. They all appear on the level with there outputs comparing them to other lights.
 
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Badbeams3

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Well, what I see is more model dependent, than across the board with any particular manufacture. For example the Nitecore TM11 seems to be on target or outperform...and my Nitecore EC25W, despite being a neutral white, seems to be on par or even a hair brighter than my cool white SC600, much to my surprise.
 
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GordoJones88

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Nitecore estimates the P25 and MH25 both at 860 ANSI lumens. Selfbuilt estimates the P25 and MH25 both at 760 ANSI lumens. So Selfbuilt's estimates are at the least consistent, and perhaps even accurate. However, I think these results may not really be that much of a discrepancy though.

Selfbuilt: "Note that my lumen estimates above are approximate for my setup, as always."

Since my Nitecore EA4 is also rated at 860 ANSI lumens, Ima just pretend it's now really only 760 ANSI lumens. :whistle:



P25-FL1-Summary1.gif
 

ledmitter_nli

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Nitecore estimates the P25 and MH25 both at 860 ANSI lumens. Selfbuilt estimates the P25 and MH25 both at 760 ANSI lumens. So Selfbuilt's estimates are at the least consistent, and perhaps even accurate. However, I think these results may not really be that much of a discrepancy though.

Selfbuilt: "Note that my lumen estimates above are approximate for my setup, as always."

Since my Nitecore EA4 is also rated at 860 ANSI lumens, Ima just pretend it's now really only 760 ANSI lumens. :whistle:



P25-FL1-Summary1.gif

What's consistent across the majority of these high power single XML & single 18650 lights is a maximum output of up to around 800 lumens OTF - tops.

Does anybody expect this to change realizing we're working with 3.7v here?

Maybe a 6 amp light with an IMR, but even then we're looking at serious short bursts and "step down" mitigated run times.

We've reached peak XML + 18650 folks :D
 

GordoJones88

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We've reached peak XML + 18650 folks :D

If a manufacturer designs a new circuit and driver specifically for the XM-L2 U2, the numbers will climb higher. However, at 1000 lumens, a 3400mAh 18650 will drain quickly and even with 95% circuit efficiency the light will get really hot really fast.
 

ledmitter_nli

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If a manufacturer designs a new circuit and driver specifically for the XM-L2 U2, the numbers will climb higher. However, at 1000 lumens, a 3400mAh 18650 will drain quickly and even with 95% circuit efficiency the light will get really hot really fast.

An XML paired with an 18650 has reached a point of diminishing returns. A new circuit isn't going to change that.

The only thing left is a new LED or arraying.
 

Badbeams3

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And the lights over 600, in general, are timed on the highest out put...500 seems to be the realistic max they can run and offer some runtime on a single 18650. So...multi emitters...or wait for some new led improvements. This happened before...when the Q5`s were out...sort of hit a ceiling for a while...just was not any where for the manufactures to go lumen wise...just very small incremental steps till the larger emitters came out. And it was just to expensive to chase after every tiny improvement...not worth it.
 

tam17

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According to Selfbuilt's measurements (with the same measuring setup as with newer lights AFAIK), Nitecore actually understated the output of their Explorer EC2 by 70 lumens. I don't see a case here.

Cheers
 

TEEJ

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I don't see any SureFire reviews with lumen measurements higher than claimed in the specs either....IE: SF's claimed lumens were lower than Selfbuilt's review measurements.

Perspective:

The review measurement is of ONE sample.

The ANSI test requires an AVERAGE of THREE samples.

Statistically, three samples is too few IMHO, but, I'm sure costs are to blame, etc.


That means that if the THREE lights that SF, or Thrunite, or NiteCore, or whatever....AVERAGED say 800 lumens, NONE OF THEM might have actually been AT 800 lumens.

One might have been at 700, and one at 750, and one at 950 lumens.


So, which random out put between 700 - 950 L, did Selfbuilt, or HJK, or TurboBB, etc, get to test/review?

If they got a 700, did the manufacturer overstate the rating? If they got a 950, did the manufacturer understate the rating?

No to both.

LED out put can vary a lot, if its even +/- 10%, 800 lumens could be 880 or 720 Lumens.

As the LEDS are randomly installed w/o testing each one...there's no WAY a modern mass produced light can have EVERY light be AT the claimed spec....unless they claim the lowest salient low output as their spec....which their competition is not doing, and which costs them in a competitive market. SF is not doing that obviously, as SB's review showed the lights he tested at below their stated ANSI specs.

Most will go with the average as ANSI requires, and cite compliance with ANSI, which is fair, even if it might not be 100% representative of every light.

So, in real life, with real life variables...a light that tested at 700 L and a light that tested at 900 L might have the same average ANSI output.

So if you BUY a model XYZ rated at 800 L, it might be above or below that by that margin...just due to normal production variables.

The ODDS of an ANSI rated 900 L light being brighter than a different light with a 800 L ANSI rating ARE better, but, the light you pull from the box MIGHT be dimmer, or brighter, than its rating.



So, if you buy a 100 of each, MOST of the higher rated ones will be brighter, and MOST of the lower rated ones will be dimmer...but, not 100% per se.

:D


The lights that quote strange out puts that rival HIDs with single 18650 cells driving T6 LED's, etc, on websites where lights have crusts and "explosion flash" modes, etc...well, they are not even claiming emitter lumens let alone OTF figures...they are just pulling numbers out of a large hat....THEY'RE the ones the reviews really need to catch...not for most of us jaded cynics...but for the great unwashed who googled their way here from the dark interweb....and what they read about a light is in a vacuum.
 
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maxrep12

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For those who are working with DIY integrating spheres, I thought I would throw out the following possiblility;

Aerogel granules are not too cost prohibitive when purchased in bulk. The granules work as great light diffusers, as they radiate light 360 degrees with little loss. If a DIY sphere was atleast half filled with granules, it would create a similar effect that cloud cover causes on an overcast day - eliminating point source lighting.

Just food for thought.:)
 

ledmitter_nli

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I don't see any SureFire reviews with lumen measurements higher than claimed in the specs either....IE: SF's claimed lumens were lower than Selfbuilt's review measurements.

Perspective:

The review measurement is of ONE sample.

The ANSI test requires an AVERAGE of THREE samples.

Statistically, three samples is too few IMHO, but, I'm sure costs are to blame, etc.


That means that if the THREE lights that SF, or Thrunite, or NiteCore, or whatever....AVERAGED say 800 lumens, NONE OF THEM might have actually been AT 800 lumens.

One might have been at 700, and one at 750, and one at 950 lumens.


So, which random out put between 700 - 950 L, did Selfbuilt, or HJK, or TurboBB, etc, get to test/review?

If they got a 700, did the manufacturer overstate the rating? If they got a 950, did the manufacturer understate the rating?

No to both.

LED out put can vary a lot, if its even +/- 10%, 800 lumens could be 880 or 720 Lumens.

As the LEDS are randomly installed w/o testing each one...there's no WAY a modern mass produced light can have EVERY light be AT the claimed spec....unless they claim the lowest salient low output as their spec....which their competition is not doing, and which costs them in a competitive market. SF is not doing that obviously, as SB's review showed the lights he tested at below their stated ANSI specs.

Most will go with the average as ANSI requires, and cite compliance with ANSI, which is fair, even if it might not be 100% representative of every light.

So, in real life, with real life variables...a light that tested at 700 L and a light that tested at 900 L might have the same average ANSI output.

So if you BUY a model XYZ rated at 800 L, it might be above or below that by that margin...just due to normal production variables.

The ODDS of an ANSI rated 900 L light being brighter than a different light with a 800 L ANSI rating ARE better, but, the light you pull from the box MIGHT be dimmer, or brighter, than its rating.



So, if you buy a 100 of each, MOST of the higher rated ones will be brighter, and MOST of the lower rated ones will be dimmer...but, not 100% per se.

:D


The lights that quote strange out puts that rival HIDs with single 18650 cells driving T6 LED's, etc, on websites where lights have crusts and "explosion flash" modes, etc...well, they are not even claiming emitter lumens let alone OTF figures...they are just pulling numbers out of a large hat....THEY'RE the ones the reviews really need to catch...not for most of us jaded cynics...but for the great unwashed who googled their way here from the dark interweb....and what they read about a light is in a vacuum.

I would be shipping that light back if it's 100 lumens less than its cited ANSI rating. But how many of us have integrating spheres. (or is that what they are counting on?)

Anyway, if one light might have been 700, and one at 750, and one at 950, that's a pretty deep swing; I don't think CREE is that inaccurate with their binning. And NiteCore's pill is electronically controlled and regulated so the output should be very close for each piece.

Given that, the principle of Occams Razor (simpler explanation is likely the correct one) would posit a simpler reason for the discrepancy. NiteCore is overrating their (latest) lights.
 

CarpentryHero

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There are output discrepancies in output and lux from lots of flashlight companies. Some of it due too led bin, others due to inconsistent construction etc. HDS is one of the few that I know of that actually calibrates the brightness of his lights.
 

ledmitter_nli

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There are output discrepancies in output and lux from lots of flashlight companies. Some of it due too led bin, others due to inconsistent construction etc. HDS is one of the few that I know of that actually calibrates the brightness of his lights.

Subwoofer (704 lums) and selfbuilt (770 lums X 2 RCR's) both rated the "860 ANSI" P25 less. Occams razor in full effect here too.
 
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Badbeams3

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It is possible Nitecore dialed down the output to achieve the 20 minute run time before the step down. They have several lights that they claim output 860 lumen, but the others step down at 3 minutes to prevent overheating. It is possible they need to redo their spec`s downward to reflect this change...but just a guess.
 
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