P60 Drop In Options, and Why Bother?

I've already made a thread or two regarding Malkoff P60 dropins, and I hope that this doesn't qualify as double posting. I'm just getting very confused about what is out there, and what will work best.

I also know that the search function works well, I just can't find what I'm looking for.

I'm trying to make my C2, C3, and 9P lights useful for camping, power outages, disasters, etc. How would you go about it? Right now, the only advantage I can see (for using the P60 lights over a modern dual output LED) is that I can use rechargeables in them, using a Malkoff Dropin, without concern. Please help me understand why these are so popular, and what I can do to make my lights as useful as possible...

1. When comparing spending $60 on a 6P (or $90ish for a C2) and $50+ on a Malkoff dropin, what is the advantage over just going out and buying an LX2 or 6PX Pro, with a 40+ hour runtime on low with the option of a 200 lumen burst?

2. What makes the Malkoff dropins so much more expensive than other dropins. I understand that they are 'fully potted' and super durable, but do other LED dropins break regularly because they aren't built right, or use inferior materials and construction practices?

3. Which P60 dropins should I use in my C2, C3, and 9P, and why?

the modular system is, what it is: modular.
Whenever a new/better/more suitable led gets out, one can individualize the one light used by just getting a "new light engine". With ready made lights, one has to get a whole new light then.
Also You usually can choose what output / color / tint, what kind of reflector, ... with an insert


PS: I do not fully understand the cheers to that maker, as I could not go with a single mode led. The ability to be dimmed without negative by-products is what sets it apart (+ the lower drive current) from other light sources
My vote goes to the inserts of member nailbender (see sub-forum custom & modified and his "P60 insert" threads there).
These can be really individualized (output light color, tint, led used, drive currents, number of levels, kind of reflector, ...) and price <-> value is quite good.
Give them a try

1. The ability to upgrade a light without having to buy another flashlight. Once your older P60 drop-in is outdated, can just buy another P60 drop-in with the latest led/drivers. 2. As for Malkoffs: Most malkoffs drop-ins retain most of their value if you want to resell them. Another thing would be brand loyalty. I started my flashlight hobbies with malkoffs drop-ins and I have stuck with the malkoff brand since it works for me. Maybe if I had started with vinh or Nailbender, my lights would be filled with their drop-in instead. Something about that solid brass heatsink gets me. Heat management is great. I can run my malkoffs at full power for long periods of time without worrying about the heat. I have used the M91 and XM-L Hound Dog for 1 hours+. As of now all Malkoffs drop-ins may run with primaries. Some high power P60 drop-ins requires rechargables to be used. My EDC rotates between malkoff drop-ins and a Torchlab H3N. I find the multi mode drop-in useful when I carry only a single light.Malkoff seems to be slowly moving in that direction with his new MDCs.

Its a combination of reasons...some of which work for some people, and not for others.

Sometimes you CAN buy a whole new state of the art light for less than the cost of the new state of the art drop in head, etc....and sometimes you can't.

Sometimes you just LIKE the feel/look/function of a particular body, and just want to swap in better heads/LEDs as available.

Vinh for example makes custom drop-ins that are bright as hell, and very reasonably priced, and he will set up what ever modes and drive levels and heat sinking you want, even if you want a direct drive pedal to the metal pocket rocket, etc...he'll even install them for you/show you how if you're totally hopeless/clueless, etc.


Malkoff and the other high end drop in guys also make top drawer stuff, and tend to under drive rather than give the option of over driving like Vinh. So, Vihn will say, OK, but don't run it on high more than X minutes...but the others will play it safe and not trust YOU to play it safe...by limiting the drop-in to safe outputs, etc. This is because with higher volume, and a general tendency for guys to not read directions....you really can't sell lights without making them more "fool-proof".

The drop ins give the option of reflector/lens choices too...so you can have more flood, or throw, when you want that head on.

Similarly, you can go for more run-time over more lumens, or, visa-versa.

MatthewSB said:

1. When comparing spending $60 on a 6P (or $90ish for a C2) and $50+ on a Malkoff dropin, what is the advantage over just going out and buying an LX2 or 6PX Pro, with a 40+ hour runtime on low with the option of a 200 lumen burst?

Click to expand...

As a noob examining a 6P after becoming familiar with LEDs via OSTS and Lambda's work, I'm totally lost as to why a host so thermally deficient has so much R&D devoted to it! :shrug:

The 6P host was future-proof in 2005. Now it gets 5 minutes on the current triples before overheating. :sleepy:

If you don't need a buncha lights/options, don't bother with 6P dropins. (will be scourged for saying this here, LOL:whoopin

I'm heavily invested in the p60 format (hosts, batteres, drop-ins). It would be hard for me to change to another format. You are correct that a standard 6p host heats up pretty rapidly with the hgh power triples and quads. From what I read, vinh's high power single xm-l drop-in also heat the host pretty quickly. My flashlight usage tends to fall under a couple of hundred lumens, so the p60 format works well for me. 200 lumens today should still be 200 lumens in 5 years.

MatthewSB said:

1. When comparing spending $60 on a 6P (or $90ish for a C2) and $50+ on a Malkoff dropin, what is the advantage over just going out and buying an LX2 or 6PX Pro, with a 40+ hour runtime on low with the option of a 200 lumen burst?

Click to expand...

Maybe a nicer beam, and you can get in-the-middle brightness & runtime options. With Neutral and high-CRI emitter options, though, you can get better useful lumens. The options there are generally sparse, and there seem to be more P60 options than whole flashlight options.

Also, you can't easily buy a brand new all-plastic-housing LED G2 type flashlight, anymore, so if you want that, drop-ins of some kind are mandatory.

2. What makes the Malkoff dropins so much more expensive than other dropins. I understand that they are 'fully potted' and super durable, but do other LED dropins break regularly because they aren't built right, or use inferior materials and construction practices?

Click to expand...

Yes. OTOH, you could have spares, given the cost. IMO, Solarforce's are perfectly serviceable, but the beam and emitters leave a bit to be desired.

So let's talk about options. I want to kick myself for not having bought 4-5 Piglets, before Goldserve went away. Those were some of the best drivers ever. I'd DIY something instead, if I had gotten more, like I should have. Anyway...

That out of the way, if I could get what Malkoff offered, but with a true low mode, I'd be as happy as a pig in slop. When 100mA is the low mode, I'm out (10-30mA would be great). Nailbender's creations look good and all, but I would need to manage to do it myself, with relatively expensive drivers (like Shark+Remora), to get even close to what I really want, today. It would be as cheap, maybe cheaper, to get and power multiple single-mode flashlights.

Want a nice balanced beam, that very few Chinese companies seem to be able to figure out? You can get P60 drop-ins for that.
Want neutral? You have P60 options.
Want warm? You have P60 options.
Want uber-bright? You have P60 options, though you may want to be careful with them.

It's certainly on its way out, with only a handful of SF models still taking it, likely to be axed in a matter of years, but:

Cerealand said:

200 lumens today should still be 200 lumens in 5 years.

Click to expand...

While they rarely post here, I'm pretty sure GreenLED and Carrot are still carrying around their relics. Last I knew, Sasha had some veritable antiques in her purse, as well. The future will bring change, but in the worst case, what you get now shouldn't get any worse. Take it for what it is while it's here, and use it until it's too beat up to go on.

MatthewSB said:

I'm trying to make my C2, C3, and 9P lights useful for camping, power outages, disasters, etc. How would you go about it? Right now, the only advantage I can see (for using the P60 lights over a modern dual output LED) is that I can use rechargeables in them, using a Malkoff Dropin, without concern. Please help me understand why these are so popular, and what I can do to make my lights as useful as possible...

1. When comparing spending $60 on a 6P (or $90ish for a C2) and $50+ on a Malkoff dropin, what is the advantage over just going out and buying an LX2 or 6PX Pro, with a 40+ hour runtime on low with the option of a 200 lumen burst?

Click to expand...

The major strenght, and the reason I personally dabble with dropins is flexibility: it allows me to "make" the light I want that more often than not, something that isn't available from any flashlight manufacturer in the way I want it. Also, one could say the same thing that's a pro for a seasoned flashaholic is a con for a less-seasoned layman: if you don't know what you need and want, you are probably served equally well with a 6PX than a 6P with a semi-randomly picked dropin. That's not to say you couldn't later on change the configuration of your 6P to make it better than the 6PX once you know've mapped your needs and requirements better...

MatthewSB said:

2. What makes the Malkoff dropins so much more expensive than other dropins. I understand that they are 'fully potted' and super durable, but do other LED dropins break regularly because they aren't built right, or use inferior materials and construction practices?

Click to expand...

Yes and no; most people don't subject their lights for rough handling on a regular basis and simply like the thought of buying better than what's minimum sufficient quality for rummaging around the sock drawer.

However , if you do indeed subject your lights to abuse on a regular basis I'd expect them to have significantly less failures than the 'el cheapos on statistical basis because just like you guessed: they do use "better" engineering, materials and domestic manufacturing instead of going for the lower price.

CouldUseALight said:

As a noob examining a 6P...

...The 6P host was future-proof in 2005.

Click to expand...

If I may...

There were 5 watt Luxeon V 10 years ago and the 6P wasn't any more outdated back then. It's the current trend and fashion of making lights with a "duty cycle" that's more of the issue: there's no difference from thermal point of view whether you have OR triple (15 watts) or if would've fashioned a Luxeon V triple back then. Thing is you can't really push 15 watts on that small flashlight without having less than 100% duty cycle (duty cycle meaning x minutes of running, then y minutes of cooling before turning back on).

On that note, yes you can have better duty cycle when you have more efficient thermal path but that's not either the fault or thanks to new technological advancements in LEDs.

Tail options - "zero rez switch", FETtie switch, McClicky Switch, Triad Tail
Body - Bored for 18mm cells, Cerakoted, carbon fiber, Ti, extenders, 2x18650, 3x18650
Heads - "Coolies" (finned), M2 heads (Oveready M2-50, M2-XML)
Incan options with clicky multi level tails...

Then of course the P60 drop-ins themselves, single LED, double LED, triples, quads - in almost whatever flavor of tint, power levels, etc....

Oveready Moddolar system - with P60 interface takes P60 heads.

Holy crap why not?

If you just need a good flashlight, buy the 6PX Pro. You may be happy with that or you may just be an early stage Flashaholic.

If you want to assemble something not readily available as a complete light, the Surefire P60 and P90 compatible hosts allow you to do that. You can assemble a high CRI, 4500K color temp C2 with 10 hours of runtime at 80 lumens (Malkoff M61LL-219) or a nice 9P with a 5 mode Nailbender and your choice of emitter. This is the platform for more serious Flashaholics.

When you tire of assembly, then it's the, "I bought a soldering iron, driver board and emitter" phase or I sent a light to a flashlight specialist like Milky for Modding. After that comes the lathe and the milling machine...

CouldUseALight said:

As a noob examining a 6P after becoming familiar with LEDs via OSTS and Lambda's work, I'm totally lost as to why a host so thermally deficient has so much R&D devoted to it! :shrug:

The 6P host was future-proof in 2005. Now it gets 5 minutes on the current triples before overheating. :sleepy:

If you don't need a buncha lights/options, don't bother with 6P dropins. (will be scourged for saying this here, LOL:whoopin

Click to expand...

Why would you expect something that fits inside your hand that can produce output equivalent or greater than that of automotive high beam to not produce massive amount of heat?

Also, there are ways to dissipate that heat, from thermal potting and copper heatsinking at manufacturing end, to basic measures such as copper/aluminium tapes at user end, to advanced modifications such as larger and heavier heads with cooling fins.

P60 setup is still going strong. That is the only design that allows for nigh infinite combinations. The runner-up is EagleTac's ET28 and ET21, but what they offer compared to P60 is like a fart in midst of a tornado.

By the way, my C2 says hello;

Being able to extend the output capability of the SureFire C2 is worth the price of admission alone.

mbw_151 said:

If you just need a good flashlight, buy the 6PX Pro. You may be happy with that or you may just be an early stage Flashaholic.

If you want to assemble something not readily available as a complete light, the Surefire P60 and P90 compatible hosts allow you to do that. You can assemble a high CRI, 4500K color temp C2 with 10 hours of runtime at 80 lumens (Malkoff M61LL-219) or a nice 9P with a 5 mode Nailbender and your choice of emitter. This is the platform for more serious Flashaholics.

When you tire of assembly, then it's the, "I bought a soldering iron, driver board and emitter" phase or I sent a light to a flashlight specialist like Milky for Modding. After that comes the lathe and the milling machine...

Click to expand...

Wow, I have reached the "I bought a soldering iron, driver board and emitter" phrase without knowing.. :twothumbs

P60 lights also provide the ability to easily run incans. Incan lights are getting increasingly difficult to find. While LEDs are far more efficient, incans produce much nicer and often more useful broad spectrum light. Incans aren't without their drawbacks, but they have their strengths, and some people appreciate those strengths. Many P60 lights are good incan hosts.

MatthewSB said:

I've already made a thread or two regarding Malkoff P60 dropins, and I hope that this doesn't qualify as double posting. I'm just getting very confused about what is out there, and what will work best.

I also know that the search function works well, I just can't find what I'm looking for.

I'm trying to make my C2, C3, and 9P lights useful for camping, power outages, disasters, etc. How would you go about it? Right now, the only advantage I can see (for using the P60 lights over a modern dual output LED) is that I can use rechargeables in them, using a Malkoff Dropin, without concern. Please help me understand why these are so popular, and what I can do to make my lights as useful as possible...

1. When comparing spending $60 on a 6P (or $90ish for a C2) and $50+ on a Malkoff dropin, what is the advantage over just going out and buying an LX2 or 6PX Pro, with a 40+ hour runtime on low with the option of a 200 lumen burst?

2. What makes the Malkoff dropins so much more expensive than other dropins. I understand that they are 'fully potted' and super durable, but do other LED dropins break regularly because they aren't built right, or use inferior materials and construction practices?

3. Which P60 dropins should I use in my C2, C3, and 9P, and why?

Click to expand...

It really depends on what you are looking for and what you want in your flashlight. Like others have said you have a lot of choices of LED, batteries, tint, modes, configurations. Also as technology progresses you can keep updating them.
Also p60 drop ins cover the whole spectrum from cheaply built to extremely well built such as Malkoff. I believe that when the Malkoff M60 first came out there were few drop ins that compared to it's quality and built quality. Even the Surefire P60L looked cheap when compared to a solid brass, potted M60, Also I think it was the first drop in that had a TIR as an optic.
Since then other high quality options have come out that are comparable to the malkoffs. I have an M60 Malkoff that came with a flashlight that I bought. I have since retired it for an XML drop in. However i still Keep in case I ever need it for some sort of emergency. Also it looks really nice on my Surefire "C2D".

MatthewSB said:

I've already made a thread or two regarding Malkoff P60 dropins, and I hope that this doesn't qualify as double posting. I'm just getting very confused about what is out there, and what will work best.

I also know that the search function works well, I just can't find what I'm looking for.

I'm trying to make my C2, C3, and 9P lights useful for camping, power outages, disasters, etc. How would you go about it? Right now, the only advantage I can see (for using the P60 lights over a modern dual output LED) is that I can use rechargeables in them, using a Malkoff Dropin, without concern. Please help me understand why these are so popular, and what I can do to make my lights as useful as possible...

1. When comparing spending $60 on a 6P (or $90ish for a C2) and $50+ on a Malkoff dropin, what is the advantage over just going out and buying an LX2 or 6PX Pro, with a 40+ hour runtime on low with the option of a 200 lumen burst?

2. What makes the Malkoff dropins so much more expensive than other dropins. I understand that they are 'fully potted' and super durable, but do other LED dropins break regularly because they aren't built right, or use inferior materials and construction practices?

3. Which P60 dropins should I use in my C2, C3, and 9P, and why?

Click to expand...

dear MatthewSB,

you are asking some excellent questions! Many posters gave good answers and motivations for the drop-in system. But because you are asking at the right time, you can do some forward planning and optimization for a system of lights based on the hosts you have.

First, let's analyze the hosts you have. The 3x123 format (C3, 9P) allows you to use more powerful drop-ins. But, in case you don't know, you can even use 2xAA, and to stop the batteries from rattling you can get relatively cheap plastic battery adapters to use inside. Why is this interesting? Well, for emergencies it's sometimes useful to have access to AA's.

So here's one suggestion for how to organize your lights.

For camping, and disasters in general, I think the best all around drop-in is the Malkoff M61N LLL (available only from the oveready website). This gives you amazing runtime in your C2 with two 123 primaries and the all around useful output of 60 lumen. It's also a pretty nice tint.

Next, for the bigger output, you can go with an M61N (same source), which will put out 300 lumens with decent runtime (probably more than 2 hours) either with 3x123 primaries or 2x18500 Li-Ion rechargeables (if your C3 is bored, if not maybe 2x17500 would work).

Finally, the medium output in the 9P, if you get like the M31N L it will put out about 140 lumens and can be used with 2xAA (cannot be used with 2x or 3x123).

Now, some will always start complaining--where are the very low outputs (those dark adapted eyes...)?? Well, just carry a 1xAAA backup light, for that, why carry around a heavier bigger reflectored light for 5 lumens or whatever your preferred really low output is?

Now for some cheaper options. Nailbender has excellent drop-ins. I like his new XPG-2 version which will work in your C2, it tends to the bigger output and lower runtime with either the 2x123 primary or 1x18650 Li-Ion rechargeable. Then you could look for lower output longer runtime options that he offers with the higher voltages to go into your C3 (so relative to my first plan, you would be changing around the C2 and the C3).

Finally, there are big lumen output drop-ins, e.g., triple LED packages, that can go instead into your C3, probably you would need 2xLi-Ion to maximize their potential so you can consider these if your C3 is bored.

If you went that route, you could keep your C2 as I initially outlined, and possibly re-orient your 9P towards a higher output drop-in.

Any questions?

Simply put it, every drop in is a new flashlight. :thumbsup:

flashy bazook said:

Any questions?

Click to expand...

Not at the moment, thanks everyone for explaining!

I recieved an M61L in the mail yesterday and am currently using it in my C2. It seems great so far as a general purpose light, 175 floody lumens works great for getting around the house at night, and wow do I friggin love the C2-HA and I'm glad to have made it a performer again. 5 Hours on a set of batteries isn't bad either.

I'm going to get an M91 just because 600 lumens sounds like fun, and also will be ordering an M61LLL to use while camping. Dreaming right now of a Pelican case with my 9P, C3, plenty of batteries, a AA adaptor, and a few different Malkoff dropins with spare incandescent bulbs

I guess that what I like the most about these old lights is that they are versatile. I was honestly trying to convince myself that they serve no purpose so that I can cash in on their collector value, but after thinking on it (with help from you guys) they are plenty valuble to me and I'll probably keep them forever.

Now that I think about it, anyone who would say to get rid of the lights was probably saying that just to get me to sell them on the Marketplace, just so that they could have them in their collection :thinking:

What I want is a P60drop in that FITS. I have a few Malkoffs and just recently got a Vinhngyun, and what they in common is they are just a millimeter or 2 too long, which leaves a small but annoying gap between the bezel and body. Sorry, but placing a red o-ring there doesn't suit me personally. I know these modules are made to specs to fit every P60 compatible host on the market, I just wish they would fit my surefire hosts a bit better. I am going to check into having them modded for a better fit.

yellow said:

My vote goes to the inserts of member nailbender (see sub-forum custom & modified and his "P60 insert" threads there).
These can be really individualized (output light color, tint, led used, drive currents, number of levels, kind of reflector, ...) and price <-> value is quite good.
Give them a try

Click to expand...

question solved in post #2