Question to anyone who knows about radios (preferably police scanners)

Frijid

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I'm not allowed to put an outside antenna up where i live for "safety" reasons. i live in a mobile home which metal cuts the signal out a lot, so i'm stuck with a poor telescoping antenna on a handheld scanner powered by 4 eneloops. here is a photo of it


First is the antenna closed down



Here is a photo of it extended



Here is a photo of the make shift antenna i could use (it's a dipole antenna that was attached to the back of my record player and stapled it to the top of my wall across the ceiling (here is a photo of my set up






at the end of the wire (where it screws into the stereo) i cut both ends off and attached a small gator clip to the end and clamp an end of it to the antenna like so



I turned it on and ran it like this for a few minutes and it improves the signal a good bit. (except when an airplane goes by, the signal gets a little choppy, but it straightens out when it goes away/ i live close to an airport) i'm able to pick up stations i wasn't able to before. my question and main concern is, is their any possible way i could damage the radio by running it like this? im not concerned about the antenna, i'm just wondering if it's safe to do so and won't damage my radio.
 
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moldyoldy

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I'm not allowed to put an outside antenna up where i live for "safety" reasons. i live in a mobile home which metal cuts the signal out a lot, so i'm stuck with a poor telescoping antenna on a handheld scanner powered by 4 eneloops. here is a photo of it

<snip of typical RS scanner loaded whip antenna>

Here is a photo of the make shift antenna i could use (it's a dipole antenna that was attached to the back of my record player and stapled it to the top of my wall across the ceiling (here is a photo of my set up

<snip of typical FM 2-wire radio antenna>

at the end of the wire (where it screws into the stereo) i cut both ends off and attached a small gator clip to the end and clamp an end of it to the antenna like so

<snip of alligator clip from one of the antenna leads to the scanner whip antenna>

I turned it on and ran it like this for a few minutes and it improves the signal a good bit. (except when an airplane goes by, the signal gets a little choppy, but it straightens out when it goes away/ i live close to an airport) i'm able to pick up stations i wasn't able to before. my question and main concern is, is their any possible way i could damage the radio by running it like this? im not concerned about the antenna, i'm just wondering if it's safe to do so and won't damage my radio.

0. The aircraft causes multipath fading - no problem.

1. Can you damage your scanner? not not under normal use conditions. The only picky point is to ground yourself before you pinch the alligator clip and attach the FM antenna to the scanner whip antenna. Not sure which scanner you have, but many portable radios use a MOSFET in the front end which is susceptible to static electricity zaps. The usual result of a static electricity zap to an antenna is poor reception if any at all. yes, they are supposed to be protected, but in the winter static electricity can be destructive to RF front ends.

a couple items to try for a bit better reception inside a house trailer:

Place your FM antenna on the window itself, but attempt to provide more padding/spacing when you cross the metal window frame in the middle, thus keeping the wire away from the metal window frame. That will reduce the signal damping from the metal siding of the house trailer. Fold the antenna ends over when you come close to the metal side frame of the window and run the antenna down - thus making an upside down U. Experiment with spacing. Masking tape or "Magic Tape" is functional to hold the shape on the window.

RS sells a single wire short wave radio antenna in a wind-up case. So does Sony. I have a couple of them. The normal wire of the antenna can be unrolled out as far as your space will allow.
 
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Frijid

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0. The aircraft causes multipath fading - no problem.

1. Can you damage your scanner? not not under normal use conditions. The only picky point is to ground yourself before you pinch the alligator clip and attach the FM antenna to the scanner whip antenna. Not sure which scanner you have, but many portable radios use a MOSFET in the front end which is susceptible to static electricity zaps. The usual result of a static electricity zap to an antenna is poor reception if any at all. yes, they are supposed to be protected, but in the winter static electricity can be destructive to RF front ends.


RS sells a single wire short wave radio antenna in a wind-up case. So does Sony. I have a couple of them. The normal wire of the antenna can be unrolled out as far as your space will allow.


Well, if you was in my shoes, would you be afraid to use it how it is, with the alligator clips and FM antenna how i have it rigged up? what are the odds static electricy would damage it how it is? ( i would try to put it in the window, but the cats would tear it up)

I've check RS for those "reel" short wave antennas about a week ago, they didn't have any in store.

i hooked my grundig shortwave radio up to it a few days ago, and i noticed that when listening to an fm station, i would sometimes hear a random pop and tick, could that be what you was describing as static electricity. i'm kinda afraid to use it now with my grundig, i may attempt to attach it to a cheap fm radio
 

moldyoldy

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keep in mind that the orientation of the antenna does affect the reception. ie: try changing the lenght of the antenna going around the corner. Generally an E/W orientation will provide better reception than N/S orientation. Think Great Circle paths on a globe.
 

moldyoldy

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ok, sorry for sounding stupid, but how do i ground myself? lol sorry for being annoying!

To discharge any static electricity that has built up in you, touch any bare metal surface that eventually connects to something like your trailer metal sheeting, or your stove, or a 3-wire lamp, or just about anything plugged in to the AC Mains.
 

Frijid

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To discharge any static electricity that has built up in you, touch any bare metal surface that eventually connects to something like your trailer metal sheeting, or your stove, or a 3-wire lamp, or just about anything plugged in to the AC Mains.

when you say discharge, is that like what happens when i touch a door knob or my dryer when it shocks me,( i noticed that's been happening a lot this week) i wondered what that was all about sometimes when i would get shocked sometimes. i remember something about this now after you mentioned touching metal to discharge. i remember in High school in one class when they worked on computers, they wore a bracelet that was anti static thing when they was working around the motherboard. the radio is hooked up right now with the clip to the antenna, so i'll just make sure to leave it hooked up and never unhook it. but if i do, I'll touch the metal window frame before i unhook it, and then touch it again before i hook the clip back up. or i can touch the metal or aluminum (not sure which one it is) light fixture that hangs on the wall and gives off the light in the room (the wires are hidden in the wall and run to the light switch so that would be AC lines)

i'll adjust the antenna like you say, i just put it up like that because the "t" is facing the area i'm picking up, but i can adjust it and play around with it.
 

moldyoldy

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to help you out on the antenna orientation, keep in mind that your radio interest for the area will probably be different for the scanner relative to the shortwave radio. For the scanner, which part of the city has the most action? For the shortwave, an east-west orientation generally give better results. However....

For an example on shortwave antenna orientation: When I lived in Germany, I ran a MARS station with 2 rigs during my off duty time. My signal from a 2KW linear amplifier was normally sufficient to reach the US for the telephone conversations which was a free service provided to any US military serviceman who wanted to talk to home in the US but not pay long-distance telephone prices. I called around on the MARS radio network to find some location in the US close to where the serviceman wanted to talk to, then that radio operator in the US would make a short-distance call, possibly collect, to the final number. The only real problem we had was that the "conversation" was to first talk after I keyed the mike, then listen while the other person talked. Both could not talk at the same time. At any rate, my rotatable Yagi antenna on the roof of a Kaserne was not pointed east/west, but more in the direction of Iceland. If you have flown the Atlantic, you will notice that you fly quite close to Iceland. These are "Great Circle" routes.
 
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moldyoldy

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when you say discharge, is that like what happens when i touch a door knob or my dryer when it shocks me,( i noticed that's been happening a lot this week) i wondered what that was all about sometimes when i would get shocked sometimes. <snip>

Correct. keep in mind that such a static discharge will also cause a crackle on the radio, just like atmospheric discharges, or simply radio static/noise at the lower frequencies, especially on the HF frequencies. In general, the higher the frequency your radio is tuned to, the less you will hear that kind of crackling sound.
 

Frijid

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Correct. keep in mind that such a static discharge will also cause a crackle on the radio, just like atmospheric discharges, or simply radio static/noise at the lower frequencies, especially on the HF frequencies. In general, the higher the frequency your radio is tuned to, the less you will hear that kind of crackling sound.

When i use my grundig i hear some crackling noise about every 5 seconds while i'm listening to it. even when i was on the other side of the room i could here it. this may just be interference from something. i think i'll stop using my grundig to listen to fm radio, and hook up my 80's era toshiba boom box that was made in japan and use it instead of my grundig to pick up fm radio stations. shortwave doesn't pick up good inside here, even with the dipole i rigged up. in order to pick up shortwave i have to be outside. needed to do this anyway since the grundig runs on batteries and the boombox plugs up to electric. it has a long wave mode, but from what i understand that only broadcasts in europe. i'm charging some batteries with a battery charger and i can see interference waves from it on the tv screen and i can hear it on the radio, i'm listening to talk radio, and the interference is drowning out the talking on the radio.

wow talking to Germany to the US via radio is fascinating. radios have always interested me, even though i know very little about them. Only thing i've used so far is just CB's. i've thought about applying for a ham license. i've seen on amazon i could by a handheld 2 meter radio for 30 bucks. it has very good reviews about it. some say it's as good as their icom or kenwood radios. i've heard they scaled down the test, so much that a 10 year old could pass it. i would have to have a handheld unit, couldn't put an antenna. if i get yelled at by others for when i had a 20 foot scanner antenna, i'd hate to see how they would react to some of the ham antenna i've seen some people have!
 

Frijid

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Let me ask you this.

i know you can get in major trouble for talking on a VHF marine radio on dry land, and that you can get in trouble for talking on a 2 meter radio without a license. I've heard that you CAN own a marine radio on dry land and listen to others talk and not get in trouble if your just listening. and i've also heard if you don't have a ham license you can still own a ham radio and not get in trouble ONLY if you just listen to it and never talk. i listen to 2 meter talk sometimes on a scanner, but i've heard that you can own an actual 2 meter band radio and just listen and you don't need a license. is this true or just a rumor?

and i've also heard that you CAN talk on marine radios on dry land, and you CAN talk on a 2 meter radio without an license, during a national emergency. is this true or just another rumor?
 

moldyoldy

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Let me ask you this.

i know you can get in major trouble for talking on a VHF marine radio on dry land, and that you can get in trouble for talking on a 2 meter radio without a license. I've heard that you CAN own a marine radio on dry land and listen to others talk and not get in trouble if your just listening. and i've also heard if you don't have a ham license you can still own a ham radio and not get in trouble ONLY if you just listen to it and never talk. i listen to 2 meter talk sometimes on a scanner, but i've heard that you can own an actual 2 meter band radio and just listen and you don't need a license. is this true or just a rumor?

and i've also heard that you CAN talk on marine radios on dry land, and you CAN talk on a 2 meter radio without an license, during a national emergency. is this true or just another rumor?

A FM Marine radio can be used ship-to-shore, not just ship-to-ship. Hence the shore station is transmitting. Technically, in some areas of the US, you can have the ham radio equipment and listen only and not violate various rules. However the burden of proof is on you, not on the complainer. ie: if anyone complains about interference to their xxxx device and you have that ham antenna sticking up, the FCC will certainly have grounds to suspect you, in spite of any protestations on your part. An antenna for reception only is quite different than an antenna used for transmission.

Hint: Sony sells a short whip antenna with amplifier for HF reception that many apartment dwellers hang out a window. It can be relatively easily installed and removed, or clamped to something more durable.

Nearly the opposite was true in Europe/Germany. There any transmitter had to be registered, used or not. When I was living in Germany in the late 60's and early 70's, any receiver had to be registered. To enforce that law, the state routinely ran a van around the villages with a dish antenna on the roof scanning for the local oscillator frequencies.
 

StarHalo

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shortwave doesn't pick up good inside here

Shortwave is a lot more difficult to get than your local broadcasts; the trick is to use as much straight antenna (horizontal wire length) as possible. If your trailer is oriented east-west, all you would need is a pocket reel antenna unreeled as much as you have room for, lengthwise going east-west. This would make a significant difference than just going off the whip.

And you will definitely hear cracks and pops, that's just part of the deal when trying to listen in a densely populated area. Aside from electric devices that you have in your area, there's the sources of noise all around you - your neighbor's cheap flatscreen, another neighbor's old refridgerator, etc.
 

moldyoldy

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+1. Shortwave is almost a dying breed because of the Internet and because the reception is so quirky due to the "skip" characteristics of the Ionosphere. One day a Dittybop can go around the world on 5 watts. In a couple days later, 2KW might not get me out of Europe except by the ground wave portion of my signal. Even wartime transmission power levels might not get me across the Atlantic even if I had an antenna that could deal with that much power. A standing wave ratio that is OK (2:1) at low power levels can become really weird at high power levels.


Frijid:
Since you stated that you are interested in Ham Radio, you should scrape together some $$ and take a training course, nominally from the ARRL:

http://www.arrl.org/licensing-education-training

I should advise you not to pick up a 2 meter rig that can both receive and transmit. There are very stringent bandplan rules in place for various areas of the country. If the band plans by the ARRL are not exactly the same as the FCC - the FCC has the rule of law.

Additionally, the FCC is _very_ attentive to ham transmitters transmitting w/in their frequency allocations, and that means the entire signal, both lower and upper sideband. The additional constraint is the power of the transmission which can vary widely depending on the certification for which you have a license. Since you mentioned the CB bands, a common violation is using a legal CB radio to drive a linear amplifier which is very non-legal on the CB bands. If the authorities suspect something and are paying attention, RDF (Radio Direction Finding) can triangulate on those violaters in less than a minute.

I strongly recommend that you stay with receivers only for now until you have passed a training course and received your license for a band and mode of transmission - voice or morse.

outside of ham courses, the ARRL is obvious, but websites like the HamUniverse offer information as well. Use a Google search for more.
 
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Obijuan Kenobe

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And of course, there are radios specifically for listening to everything...without the ability to transmit...so you avoid any potential issues with being an non-HAM.

But ultimately, if you are really interested in radio...go get the license. The tests are easy now without the Morse requirement...and the knowledge required to pass is more than necessary basics.

73!
LA4VSA
obi
 

HarryN

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I am pretty sure that the use of an outdoor antenna in the US is regulated exclusively by the FCC. A lot of communities and associations like to pretend that they can control this, but as far as I know, when push comes to shove, they actually have no say in the matter. (I am not a lawyer, so check for yourself)

I drink coffee with a local ham who has quite large towers at his house. There is some local pressure on him, but he was quite adamant in a meeting with the city that they have no say in the matter. The city backed down on their "threats", but of course did ask him to be reasonable about the situation.
 

Frijid

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I am pretty sure that the use of an outdoor antenna in the US is regulated exclusively by the FCC. A lot of communities and associations like to pretend that they can control this, but as far as I know, when push comes to shove, they actually have no say in the matter. (I am not a lawyer, so check for yourself)

I drink coffee with a local ham who has quite large towers at his house. There is some local pressure on him, but he was quite adamant in a meeting with the city that they have no say in the matter. The city backed down on their "threats", but of course did ask him to be reasonable about the situation.

HAMS can be VERY helpful in a situation where the electric is out and a city gets shackled by a storm or something.
 

moldyoldy

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yes, but.... Hams are still expected to operate w/in legal frequencies and powers even during/after major storms etc. If there are any exceptions to be made, the FCC will publish/broadcast those exceptions, usually to the pertinent stations. The advantage to the ham is that he typically is part of a network(s) and the network often remains functional during unpleasant events, although individual stations may be missing. Some Hams enjoy figuring out how to operate away from their radio shack - sort of the equivalent of a "bug-out bag" for hams.

For example, that is the original reason for the MARS network - to support the military, et.al.. Every Saturday morning the MARS network had a roll-call on the air for my general area. etc. etc. even if the propagation was terrible and we could barely understand each other. This was all collection of data for what could be done in-case-of. But we were not allowed to exceed a 2KW limit. Sometimes we were asked to shut off our linears and work with the ~~100 watt output of the straight transmitter. I had separate transmitters and receivers. only one time during really bad propagation conditions did I observe what happened when a certain station switched to an elevated power (sic) and "rotated his rhombic" <rhombic antennas do not rotate>>. My S-meter went from bumping along less than "S-1" to pegging the needle off S-9. He held that power for only a minute then went back to normal.

For example, in the world of AM broadcast radio, also controlled by the FCC, there is a licensed power output allowed for the daytime. However during the evening/night when propagation/skip is better, to avoid any overlap clashes between stations legally operating on the same frequency, AM stations are required to reduce their power. How much depends a bit on the terrain and antenna field layout. A lower-power AM broadcast radio station operates at 5KW. A high-power AM broadcast radio station may be listed as "free or clear channel" and operates at 50KW output. The specific coverage depends on the antennas and antenna field since the stations do not want to waste power on areas that are not profitable. Broadcast stations have to renew their licenses periodically and documentation as to the extent of community support is one of the expected inputs to the FCC. or the frequency may be given to a more promising station.

For example: During the major electrical grid failure on the East Coast in 1968 or so, I lived in Syracuse NY. In the evening I watched as a glow from a large power transformer(s) burning out lit the sky and the lights of the entire city progressively disappeared, leaving only glows from generator-powered locations such as hospitals. The TwinCities-based radio station WCCO is/was a clear channel station with the authorization, at least then, to broadcast at 50KW. During that major electrical grid failure, the FCC granted specific permission to WCCO to increase power and change antenna configuration to broadcast to the East Coast of the US from Minnesota. The goal was to broadcast messages & notifications to families, etc. Since my area in Syracuse had no power, I was scanning the bands on my battery-operated SW radio and was amazed to hear WCCO coming in quite strongly.

Moral of the stories: Know the rules and follow them!
 
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