Is the XR-E still the King-Of-Throw?

rayman

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I was always looking for the single-emitter and reflector LED flashlight with the greatest throw. I really liked my Maglite XR-E aspherical mod but I didn't find the beam pattern really practical so I was looking for a flashlight with a reflector. I once had a Tiablo A10 but had to sell that one.

So lately I was researching again especially as there are quite some XM-L throwers out there with rather large reflectors. But the consent of my research was that the XR-E still out throws the XM-L if both are fitted with the needed reflectors. So is that right or will the XM-L outthrow the XR-E if it has a bigger reflector regarding it bigger die size?

rayman
 

GordoJones88

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Olight SR95S UT

1 kilometer throw

SR95SUT-FL1-Summary.gif
 

twl

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Check out the One Stop Throw Shop(OSTS) on the CPF Custom Light forum. The OSTS has their own forum, and they have created the world record throwing Deft-X there. Something like 900k lux. It's unbelieveable.
Just before they did the Deft-X, they had a modified Thrunite TN31 that did about 400k lux.
I am not sure about the exact emitters used in these lights. You should go there are read about what's going on.
The owner of the OSTS is named Michael, screen-name "Saabluster" on the forum.
They have licensed the Wavien technology, and are using it with their own designs to produce the longest throwing flashlights in the world.
 
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yoyoman

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I'm also looking for some lights with throw. The XR-E is a small emitter and seems to be easier to combine with a proper reflector to maximize throw. The XM-L is a big emitter and more difficult to set up to maximize throw. I believe the modified OSTS TN31 MB uses a XB-G2 and a big reflector to provide spill and throw. The Deft-X uses, among other mods, an aspheric lens and provides only throw. The threads referred to by twl are very interesting and the different mods aren't always intuitive. Fewer lumens to get more throw.

I just got an OR mini turbo head with an XM-L emitter and the way they put it together so they can use a big reflector is cool. Spill and a hot spot for throw. I have a Deft-X on the way, but demand has been much greater than expected and the wait will be significant. An OSTS TN10 is on the way and I am interested to see how they modified it. A very small light optimized for throw will be fun. Michael (Saabluster) and the OR team are all very nice and I like dealing with them.
 

TEEJ

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The XPG2 is a better choice than the XRE in most applications.


A lot comes down to if the throw is for its own sake, just wanting to put a spot of light on a distant target to see if you CAN...or...if you need to SEE something off in the distance.


The asphericals, mostly, are about the former, a spot to see how far it goes...with exceptions for long range shooting, as its a way to get your cross hairs to contrast with your coyote, etc....but you'd use something else first, to FIND the coyote, and so forth. They are also a way to stretch the light when you have a small form factor, and need maximum range, and can sacrifice the size of the area you can see at a time. The XRE is well matched to this function, as the small effective surface area yields very good collimation.

The limiting factor for the asphericals using small but dim LEDs, is that as things get further away, they are harder to see, as they are becoming a progressively smaller proportion of your field of view. This is sometimes known as the railroad track effect.

If you are on RR tracks, looking don them, the tracks seem to converge at some point off in the distance....your eye sees the two rails as getting closer and closer together further and further away. The distance between the rails is of course several feet at every point, but, far enough away, your eyes can't resolve two objects from each other...and, analogously, a small spot of light is eventually too small to see....even if its the same lux as a closer spot, etc. This is why you can see the lights of NYC from space at night, but not an equally lit up but smaller city.

Add in that the effective brightness of the target (Lux) drops off with distance according to the inverse square law (The light is 1/4 the brightness at double the distance...), and a concentrated spot with low lumens will create less lux on target than if it sent the same concentrated beam with more lumens....IE: the more lumens hit something, the more lux result.

Add to that that you not only might want to see the dot of light hit something...you might want to see what its hitting....and the use of a larger, higher lumen LED instead of the XRE starts to become a clear path.

The challenge of course is to GET a larger LED to be able to concentrate the lumens as well as a smaller LED can...and the end product is typically NOT concentrating the beam as much, but say making the beam wider, but, compensating by making the overall beam so much brighter that the resulting lux is STILL higher on target....but, the spot on the target is a lot larger.

That uses more power, and that requires a larger light/form factor to handle/collimate it.



So, the XPG2 is closer to the size of the XRE than say the XML's are, and it has much better lumen output...hence its popularity for a throw based light....essentially a lot more lumens from a still small effective surface area.

With the right setup, an XML2 can be used to get the same beam range with a larger beam spot, but with form factor compromises.




Getting more throw out of a larger, higher lumen LED is harder...but getting the spot to be large enough to see anything is easier.

Using some of the newer techniques, some of the larger LEDs are being used o throw beams further than the old XRE could dream about.


So, if you were about to consider using an LED for throw in a project, I'd consider the XPG2 instead of the XRE.
 
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kengps

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TEEJ, sorry but your explanation is incorrect. Light does not track straight like railroad tracks. The field of view is identical whether its 20 feet or 200 feet. The light spreads so that the spot size on the target gets bigger at a distance. An aspherical spot at 50 meters down the railroad track would be 4 feet wide. At 500 meters it will be 40 feet wide. It will appear larger than the railroad track. It doesn't behave like a 4 foot wide railroad track, getting smaller and smaller to the viewer.
The XPG is 2.56 square millimeters. An XRE-EZ900 is .81 square millimeters. 300 lumens from the XRE-EZ900 would require 960 lumens from the XPG for the same surface brightness of 370 lumens/per square millimeter. Throw is directly related to surface brightness and the collimation achieved by the reflector/lens. One can achieve equal Lux with the bigger LED's. But it requires a much larger reflector. But from the same "equal sized" reflector/lens, the brighter LED will win.
 
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dc38

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TEEJ, sorry but your explanation is incorrect. Light does not track straight like railroad tracks. The field of view is identical whether its 20 feet or 200 feet. The light spreads so that the spot size on the target gets bigger at a distance. An aspherical spot at 50 meters would be 4 feet, and at 500 meters it will be 40 feet. It doesn't behave like a 4 foot wide railroad track, getting smaller and smaller to the viewer. The XPG is 2.56 square millimeters. An XRE-EZ900 is .9 square millimeters. 300 lumens from the XRE-EZ900 would require 850 lumens from the XPG for the same surface brightness of 333 lumens/per square millimeter. Throw is directly related to surface brightness and the collimation achieved by the reflector/lens. One can achieve equal Lux with a larger reflector on the bigger LED's. But from an "equal sized" reflector/lens the brighter LED will win.

I thought at a certain point the intensity of the larger dies with = size reflectors as smaller dies will eventually taper out and the smaller die MIGHT be able to outthrow the larger brighter die? (This is with a stock LED, no dedoming / coupled with lenses or anything, just a traditional bulb and reflector setup)
 

rayman

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Thanks for all your posts so far.

Clearly the Olight SR95S has a better throw but I would see that as an own category regarding the size and especially the price. The light I was looking at is the Solarforce Masterpiece Pro 1. At the time I had my Tiablo A10 the MPP 1 was a great competitor throw-wise. The direction I'm more looking into is the comparison between the XR-E and the XM-L.

rayman
 

Vortus

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You might also want to look at some of the OSTS's smaller offerings. Modifying already good throwing lights and making them better.
 

kengps

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I thought at a certain point the intensity of the larger dies with = size reflectors as smaller dies will eventually taper out and the smaller die MIGHT be able to outthrow the larger brighter die? (This is with a stock LED, no dedoming / coupled with lenses or anything, just a traditional bulb and reflector setup)

No. The larger, newer LED's are simply bigger. But they have lower surface brightness. The XML for example is 4 square/mm. At 1000 LED lumens it's only 250 lumens per square mm. Thats only equals a standard XRE for surface brightness at 250 lumens. The XRE when pushed hard is capable of over 400 lumens per square/mm.
Then there is the subject of Domes. Domes increase the apparent size of the die, which in effect decreases the surface brightness. That is a whole nuther discussion.
 
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CarpentryHero

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I'm personally super impressed with the XPE2, I'd love to see how it performs in the same size reflector against the reigning champ
 

kengps

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I was always looking for the single-emitter and reflector LED flashlight with the greatest throw. I really liked my Maglite XR-E aspherical mod but I didn't find the beam pattern really practical so I was looking for a flashlight with a reflector. I once had a Tiablo A10 but had to sell that one.

So lately I was researching again especially as there are quite some XM-L throwers out there with rather large reflectors. But the consent of my research was that the XR-E still out throws the XM-L if both are fitted with the needed reflectors. So is that right or will the XM-L outthrow the XR-E if it has a bigger reflector regarding it bigger die size?

rayman

You will obviously need a larger reflector to out-throw an XR-E with an XM-L. You can make about any LED throw farther than XR-E
if the reflector is large enough.
 

kengps

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The light I was looking at is the Solarforce Masterpiece Pro 1. At the time I had my Tiablo A10 the MPP 1 was a great competitor throw-wise. The direction I'm more looking into is the comparison between the XR-E and the XM-L.
rayman

Here is a comparison for you.....Tiablo A10=54,000 lux. A Tiablo A50 (looks identical to A10 other than the reflector) modded with an XM-L at 2.8 Amps= 37,000 lux.
 

jcw122

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LOL I like how people are referencing different lights when OP is clearly talking about emitters not lights.
 
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