Anything more powerful than the Surefire Fury P2X?

Greetings,

Newbie here that loves the form and function of the Surefire Fury P2X. I especially like the tailcap switch (sans switches on the side), the simplicity of only two modes: 500 and 15 lumens (although a strobe might be nice), and the compact size from using only two CR123 batteries.

I see flashlights advertising 1000+ lumens, but I am a little skeptical about some of these claims, particularly with the cheaper varieties. I would be grateful if anyone could recommend a flashlight that meets the criteria listed above that would be noticeably more powerful than 500 lumens.

Great forum, thanks in advance for any advice,

Herb

Check out the Streamlight ProTac HL (600 lumens high, 33 lumens low and has strobe and removable pocket clip).

hwalbe1 said:

I see flashlights advertising 1000+ lumens, but I am a little skeptical about some of these claims, particularly with the cheaper varieties. I would be grateful if anyone could recommend a flashlight that meets the criteria listed above that would be noticeably more powerful than 500 lumens.

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My "500 lumen" SF Fury is brighter, with better throw and flood, than a co-workers "800 lumen" NiteCore.

I don't believe lumen claims, other than to compare within a brand, and have to test a light first when switching brands.

You can't SEE lumens, you can only see lux. So, when people try to compare lights with various lumen out puts, they really can't....what they really see are the lux, which are a function of the beam angle if the lumens are the same for example.


IE: I can have a 131 lumen maglight and a 600 lumen Klarus XT11, and point them both at a wall, and everyone will say the maglight is brighter...because its 131 lumens are all concentrated into one small hot spot, which then glares back to the eye as a high lux value that constricts your pupils and is perceived as "Bright". The XT11's 600 lumens are more spread out, and therefore the lux values are smaller, but over a wider area.

So, humans suck at comparing lumens...and also suck at lux when the lux value reaches a point where our eyes start to stop down.


My 500 lumen SF Fury and my 600 lumen XT for example are very close in beam pattern, with the Fury being just a smidge less floody, so, the XT11 is slightly more useful to me in that regard. I greatly prefer the UI on the XT11 though, so the Fury sits in a back-up spot, and the XT11 is EDC'd.


Lumens alone are not always a great way to compare lights. You also want to know the cd (Lux at 1 meter, etc...) to get a feel for the maximum range of the light.

To choose a light, I have a task for it in mind. That task might involve a certain range or ranges, and, a certain area that gets lit up at a time, at a range of brightness (Lux on target).

For example....for gun sights, most people like ~ 1-2 lux on target as a MINIMUM. The RANGE that you GET 1 lux at, for example, is the square root of the cd for the light. The ANSI rating for the RANGE of a light is based upon 0.25 lux on target, which will make the number of meters of PUBLISHED range way too optimistic for that USE.


(You get 1/4 the lux at double the distance)


If you know the beam angle, you can predict the size of the spot of light at any given range.

So, if doing a search for an unknown target or target set in a large area, you typically want the light as spread out as possible, so you see as much as possible at a time...and not be "trying to see through a paper towel tube type view".

So a wide floody beam is preferred.

For some scenarios, such as dense foliage where a floody beam will over-light your foreground too much/glare, combat-type environments where too much spill will expose your concealment or buddies' positions, etc, and distances where the SIZE of the flashlight means you HAVE to concentrate the beam just to REACH a target, etc, a tight beam is preferred.



When you roll all of the above together, you can choose alight beam that will do what you need done....and then choose a light that HAS that beam of light coming out of it.

After THAT, you narrow it to one that has a UI that works in the intended scenario.

hwalbe1 said:

I would be grateful if anyone could recommend a flashlight that meets the criteria listed above that would be noticeably more powerful than 500 lumens.

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Noticeable in what environment? Are you looking to illuminate far off objects outside? Just to blow people away inside? The nature of human vision means that a increase in lumens of less than 30-50% is likely to go unnoticed...you have to roughly quadruple the lumen count to be seen as twice as bright.

Beam profile is important too...a very tight hotspot will seem much brighter in the spot, but not very good for use as a guide light. Whereas some lights produce an even flood, and light up an entire area at the expense of a bright hotspot.

Without knowing what you use it for, it is hard for any of us to give you any good advice...but a 600 lumen light isn't going to be noticeably brighter, I can tell you that. A lot of members seem to think Surefire underestimates its lumen counts anyway, so unless you are SIGNIFICANTLY increasing the lumen count, you are quite likely to be disappointed. I'd shoot for at least 800 real "out the front" lumens if you want to see a real upgrade.

Waiting for clarification...

Edit: TEEJ beat me to it...we need more info about what you will use the light for!

Yes there are WAY brighter handheld lights than 500 lumens. There are many claims of LED lights with 1000 lumens that aren't, a few that claim less than 1000 lumens and are more (for a little while anyways) and ones that run for a few hours over 3000 lumens. I happen to like lumens, it tells me more than any other single metric what I value in lights. I'm a flood guy though, if you're a fan of throw then yeah lux and weather conditions and math formulas can become important. Me, I just like throwing lots of light everywhere.



The keyword in your post is noticably, the eye doesn't respond linearly to changes in brightness, so rule of thumb is 4x the light for 2x the perceived brightness. You probably wouldn't even notice the difference between a 500 and 700 lumen light with the same beam patterns without repeated AB testing. Pocketable lights that will noticably outdo a fury are in the realm of "pushing the limit" of technology, usually with 3 or 4 emitters running near the thermal limits of a small 2 x cr123 sized flashlight body.

I'm throwing in a clarification in case there's some confusion:

The "4x brighter to LOOK 2x brighter" thing really refers to the inverse square law, where the lux on a target will be 1/4 as bright at double the distance.

So, for a given range, you need 4x the output to look twice as bright, etc.


What the above obscures is that you do SEE MORE with more lumens, and, more lux on target, even if you can't tell judging the light itself.

IE: We are bad light meters, but, decent observers of ITEMS.


If we take two lights with the same beam angle, but one is 10% brighter, or just have a light that can ramp its brightness, etc...

And we shine that light on a wall, we might NOT be able to tell the difference unless we are rapidly switching between them for comparison. etc.

If we do the same thing by shining it at a series of targets...say a field of 100 targets, we would see more TARGETS with the 10% brighter light, even if we can't tell the BEAM is brighter.


The reason is simply that those added lumens add lux on targets, so more of them become visible...as more of them have the lux needed to resolve them, etc.


So, a light doesn't have to be 4x brighter to be "better", even 10% brighter is better...and visible IN PRACTICE.


The caveat is always that what will WORK best is dependent on what you need to SEE...and the form factor of what you can carry to do it.


The Fury, etc, are small enough to slip into a front pocket...an Olight X6 is not. An Olight X6 is pumping out MASSIVELY more lumens than the Fury, so you see both further and a a wider area, by a LOT.

Some lights ~ Fury sized are now, because they have newer higher output LED's, etc, can therefore pump out a lot more than the Fury and its older/weaker LED.


If their beam patterns and output and UI make sense for you, they could be a better choice. I add in durability though. So, My XT11 and my Fury are not top lumen outputters, but, they are very hard to break...and I will have light even if I drop my XT11 off a scaffold onto concrete. (600 Lumens before AND after falling off a scaffold is better than 1,000 lumens before, and zero after)

The RANGE that you GET 1 lux at, for example, is the square root of the cd for the light. The ANSI rating for the RANGE of a light is based upon 0.25 lux on target, which will make the number of meters of PUBLISHED range way too optimistic for that USE.

Click to expand...

Fascinating, and very well explained.

MatthewSB said:

My "500 lumen" SF Fury is brighter, with better throw and flood, than a co-workers "800 lumen" NiteCore.

I don't believe lumen claims, other than to compare within a brand, and have to test a light first when switching brands.

Click to expand...

Throw an XPG-2 in it, and watch the Fury (for it's size) really throw some light! ... :thumbsup:

TEEJ said:

I'm throwing in a clarification in case there's some confusion:

The "4x brighter to LOOK 2x brighter" thing really refers to the inverse square law, where the lux on a target will be 1/4 as bright at double the distance.

So, for a given range, you need 4x the output to look twice as bright, etc.

Click to expand...

The inverse square law doesn't apply when you doesn't compare different distances. To double the lux at target you need to double the output, not quadruple it.

Lurveleven said:

The inverse square law doesn't apply when you doesn't compare different distances. To double the lux at target you need to double the output, not quadruple it.

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Correct...and why I called it "That 4X brighter to look 2X as bright thing"



That's where it started at least.

Also why I'm always talking about being able to see more with even 10% etc.

I think the Surefire Fury PX2 is an excellent choice for you. Perhaps you would like a backup light. The Eagletac TX25C2 XM-L2 U2 is quite nice.

Thanks for the clarification TEEJ. Well explained. Clearly we agree the OP needs to come back and tell us how he uses the light.

I received my Fury yesterday based on users reviews on these forums.
This was a great purchase.
I probably will buy another one.

try out the armytek predator xp-g2. around the same lumens otf but very very tight hot spot. it is fully programmable so you could program any modes you want in any sequence.

Greetings and thank you for all for your collective input. I originally neglected to mention that I work in law enforcement. I am assigned to a tactical team, which means I work in civillian dress, and prefer to keep my gear lightweight, compact and effective.

I became a true believer in high powered flashlights while searching alleys for an offender wanted in connection with a brutal attack and robbery. Using the low power mode of the Surefire Fury, I must have startled the subject as he began to run toward me in a narrow gangway. I immediately tapped the rear button of my Surefire, temporarily blinding him with 500 lumens. This disoriented the offender to such a degree, that I was able to handcuff him without incident.

In light of my experience (pun intended), I am extremely pleased with my Surefire Fury, but I am open minded to suggestions. I perhaps naively used lumens as a metric in my original post, so I appreciate the tutorial on brightness, very illuminating (har, har).

The suggested Armytek looks like a great light, but slightly more bulky with less lumens than other options (please forgive my ignorance of illumination metrics, but I'm a cop, I'm not expected to know math). The Eagletac TX25C2 looks awesome (1030 lumens!), but the lack of a tailcap switch is a dealbreaker for me. In my experience, it is much easier to find/press a tailcap switch than a side-mounted switch in the dark, and under pressure (especially while wearing gloves). Lastly, given my line of work, reliability is extremely important to me, and swapping lamp assemblies and circuits is probably beyond my abilities.

I considered all your suggestions, and recently purchased an Eagletac D25LC2 with upgraded CREE XM-L2 U2 lamp, which claims 741 lumens on turbo mode. I especially like the option to use rechargeable 18650 batteries in a form factor slightly smaller than the Fury (smaller diameter head). The mode selection is not as intuitive as the Fury, but the Eagletac has some really nice strobes which can be useful for gaining someone's attention.

Based upon your advice, I suspect the difference between the 500 lumen Surefire Fury and the 741 lumen Eagletac D25LC2 may be imperceptible to the human eye. Nevertheless, I had to have it, and if you're reading this on Candle Power Forums, I think you would understand. Thanks again for the guidance!

Short answer, no, there isnt a off the shelf light currently that is significantly brighter than your Surefire, as it uses a nearly up to date LED.

If you want to blind people what you care about most is lux, and the eagletac you just purchased will probably be lower than the Surefire, thanks to the smaller head....

I am all out of date on my torch info though (have been trying to avoid these forums costing too much money lol...) but in the olden days eagletac's (the larger head models) used to have higher lux outputs than most of its competitors so.... I guess you will see when you get it.