Li-ion battery question

BeastFlashlight

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
1,276
Location
Boston
Total novice question, I read that it's not good to store your lithium ion batteries charged. I can't help but think 'Duh', i'll be 'storing' some of my batteries inside flashlights that I'll only be using when the 'unexpected' need arrises! Does it not defeat the purpose then to store dead batteries? Ok I need my flashlight now, but I gotta wait 3 hrs for a charge??
 

HotWire

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 9, 2011
Messages
1,651
The li-ion batteries I use are charge and either in the flashlight or ready to be placed in the flashlight as backup. My reserve batteries are stored at about 1/2 charge. There are battery expert here who can tell you more. Works for me!
 

BeastFlashlight

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
1,276
Location
Boston
My personal preference is to keep my living room above 25 degrees lol. Not sure what the technical issues are with charged batteries being stored. Do u know why u are storing your batteries at 50%? Why are charged stored batteries bad? My batteries cost about $20 a piece I don't want to ruin them, I mean what are the specifics, if storing a charged battery degrades it's capacity by 1% per year I don't care. If it degrades it 5% per month I'd like to know why this is, and can I solve the problem by storing them at 90%...80%...70%...???
 

HKJ

Flashaholic
Joined
Mar 26, 2008
Messages
9,715
Location
Copenhagen, Denmark
My personal preference is to keep my living room above 25 degrees lol. Not sure what the technical issues are with charged batteries being stored. Do u know why u are storing your batteries at 50%? Why are charged stored batteries bad? My batteries cost about $20 a piece I don't want to ruin them, I mean what are the specifics, if storing a charged battery degrades it's capacity by 1% per year I don't care. If it degrades it 5% per month I'd like to know why this is, and can I solve the problem by storing them at 90%...80%...70%...???

At 25 degree you looses about 20 percent each year from a fully charged battery, but only 4% if it is at 40% charge.
I did include a link to more information in my first post.
 

reppans

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 25, 2007
Messages
4,873
Ummmm, the 25 degrees is centigrade. 40% capacity for storage is because the cell will still self-discharge in storage so the 40% gives it cushion that it can self discharge into without reaching critical voltage levels. The higher the voltage, the more it's stressing the Li-ion... Not that is necessarily bad - the cell is designed for it and you'll still decent life ~300+ cycles. The real question if you want to get 600 or 1200 cycles.. ie, much more than average. For me not so important with cheap flashlight batts, but quite important with the non-removeable batts in Apple products.

Here's a military study on different charging habits using 18650s - it supports the points the Batt Univ points that HKJ linked to. Basically it says that higher states of charge and deeper cycling wear a battery more.

7511624906_b2829f9c0d.jpg


It boils down to having the right tool for the job - a Li-ion rechargeable is made to be used and cycled frequently, not stored. For infrequent use, you should get lithium primaries, or use Eneloops.
 
Last edited:

Justin Case

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
3,797
There is some potentially confusing information being passed here that I'd like to try to clarify.

There are two kinds of battery capacity losses -- permanent and non-permanent (or recoverable). The latter is basically "self-discharge" (can also include parasitic discharge from something like a protection circuit, but that is typically a very small drain on the order of micro amps) and you reverse it by recharging the cell.

Permanent capacity loss is not recoverable by recharging or other means. It's a degradation arising from use and aging (the cells don't even have to be used). It is mainly due to the number of full charge/discharge cycles, battery voltage and temperature. All of these factors are more stressing on the cell and wear it out faster.

In your case, you are asking about proper cell storage in the flashlight. You want the flashlight to be immediately ready to use, yet you are also concerned about longevity of the cells, and presumably that the cells haven't self-discharged so much that you have no capacity remaining when you need to use the light. Ideally, you'd like to store the batteries at full charge for max readiness and run time, but the longer a Li-ion cell is exposed to high voltage (e.g., above 4.10V), the more permanent loss the cell suffers.

The generic Li-ion data says that if you store the cell at full charge (i.e., 4.20V resting voltage) at 25C (77F), you will permanently lose about 20% capacity per year. If you store the cell at an initial state of charge of 40% full at 25C, then you will permanently lose about 4% capacity per year. On top of that permanent capacity loss, there is the recoverable loss. Table 3 in the Battery University link provides recoverable (self-discharge) loss data. However, I think it is overly pessimistic. If you search CPF, IMO you'll find that the consensus is that *high-quality* Li-ions have very little self-discharge. So, IMO the only factor that you need to consider is what permanent capacity loss rate are you willing to tolerate.

The usual advice is to store Li-ions at 40% state of charge at 15C (60F). Should be no issues storing in the fridge (I'd probably not store them in the freezer because of condensation issues when re-exposed to ambient). Both types of capacity losses increase exponentially with temperature, so you definitely want to avoid exposing the cells to elevated temps.

The problem with 40% SoC is that it is only 40% SoC. Is that enough for your purposes? If the flashlight is an emergency light for which you might need days of run time, then maybe 40% is not enough.

Maybe go with full charge (4.20V) or 90% charge (4.10V) but store your loaded flashlight in the fridge, which is probably at about 4C (40F)?

Or look into a different battery chemistry like NiMH Eneloops or lead-acid.
 

reppans

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 25, 2007
Messages
4,873
....On top of that permanent capacity loss, there is the recoverable loss. Table 3 in the Battery University link provides recoverable (self-discharge) loss data. However, I think it is overly pessimistic.....

I agree with everything you said, except this ^^.

Table three shows the permanent capacity loss, with the same numbers you just mentioned (20% perm loss @100% SoC, 4% perm loss @40% SoC at 25C). I think you are confusing the wording of Table 3 "Estimated Recoverable Capacity....." as in "80% is recoverable capacity (20% is permanently lost)."

There is no discussion on that Batt Univ page of Li-ion self-discharge rates.
 
Last edited:

Colonel Sanders

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 17, 2010
Messages
1,022
Location
ROLL TIDE!
I have 8 Redilast 2900s that are now a couple of years old. They have spent practically their whole life at about 4.17-4.20v and have never been stored in the fridge (in the house or in the garage mostly.) I am in the process of testing their capacity now (finished with 6) and they are generally showing better than 2700mAh capacity (2685-2742 so far) now when discharged at 1.5a.

Just thought I'd throw some real world info out there. Make of it what you will. :)
 

SemiMan

Banned
Joined
Jan 13, 2005
Messages
3,899
Against "some" recommendations, I store batteries I am unlikely to use anytime soon in the freezer. Yes you get condensation when they come out, but "condensed" water is pure, i.e. non-conductive, though it can dissolve debris that may be on the cell. Other batteries I tend to store in the fridge. Some of my freezer ones are cheap Ultrafire and are likely 5 years old now. Still work great.

Colonel Sanders, the Redilast are protected are they not? I find that protected do have some self discharge. Are you topping them up quite regularly?

Semiman
 

Colonel Sanders

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 17, 2010
Messages
1,022
Location
ROLL TIDE!
Yes, they are protected. Whatever self discharge they may have has gone unnoticed by me. I'm not saying it's not there, just that I don't think I've ever let one sit long enough to have noticed. Generally I pop a cell in a light when I'm going to carry it and then pop it right back in the charger usually the next day or within a few days. These days these particular 18650s are rarely ever discharged past probably 3.9-4.0v before being charged again I'd say.
 

SemiMan

Banned
Joined
Jan 13, 2005
Messages
3,899
Yes, they are protected. Whatever self discharge they may have has gone unnoticed by me. I'm not saying it's not there, just that I don't think I've ever let one sit long enough to have noticed. Generally I pop a cell in a light when I'm going to carry it and then pop it right back in the charger usually the next day or within a few days. These days these particular 18650s are rarely ever discharged past probably 3.9-4.0v before being charged again I'd say.

Dropping the voltage from 4.2 to 4.1 and then again to 4.0 can make a good difference in terms of storage life. The self discharge could be bringing them down enough to help their life.

Semiman
 

Justin Case

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
3,797
I agree with everything you said, except this ^^. Table three shows the permanent capacity loss, with the same numbers you just mentioned (20% perm loss @100% SoC, 4% perm loss @40% SoC at 25C). I think you are confusing the wording of Table 3 "Estimated Recoverable Capacity....." as in "80% is recoverable capacity (20% is permanently lost)." There is no discussion on that Batt Univ page of Li-ion self-discharge rates.
Right on! Funny thing is that I used that table both for permanent loss and recoverable loss because I read different parts of the table caption. That's what happens when you are in a hurry. Some references estimate about 3%/month self-discharge loss, but I've not seen anything close to that magnitude myself.
 
Last edited:

Justin Case

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
3,797
Against "some" recommendations, I store batteries I am unlikely to use anytime soon in the freezer. Yes you get condensation when they come out, but "condensed" water is pure, i.e. non-conductive, though it can dissolve debris that may be on the cell. Other batteries I tend to store in the fridge. Some of my freezer ones are cheap Ultrafire and are likely 5 years old now. Still work great. Colonel Sanders, the Redilast are protected are they not? I find that protected do have some self discharge. Are you topping them up quite regularly? Semiman
The last thing I want on my Li-ions is water, "pure" or not. I suppose I could towel them off before dropping into the flashlight, but I simply am risk-adverse. I see a poor risk/benefit ratio. YMMV. Of course, condensation can form even if you store the cells in the fridge. So I actually treat Li-ions like I treat ammo. Store in a cool, dry place. It's not single digit celsius, but it isn't 25C either. If your protected cells are actually showing noticeable self-discharge from the protection circuit, that's a bad protection circuit. Decent protection ICs draw micro amps of current.
 

BeastFlashlight

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
1,276
Location
Boston
What are Eneloops?

I suppose I can drain the batteries some because when I 'Need' to use the flashlight in a pinch it won't be for long periods of time. I have no idea how to know what % charge I'm at, a DC volt meter? Than divide the voltage by total voltage?
 

archimedes

Flashaholic
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Messages
15,780
Location
CONUS, top left
I suppose I can drain the batteries some because when I 'Need' to use the flashlight in a pinch it won't be for long periods of time. I have no idea how to know what % charge I'm at, a DC volt meter? Than divide the voltage by total voltage?

This may be a thread of interest ...

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/115871

If you are new to use of Li-Ion cells, as suggested in your OP above, it would be highly recommended to invest some time in reading up on the special safety and handling issues these batteries require.

Two very useful places to start are "Battery University" (can be found easily by Google), and the "Smoke and Fire, Hot Cells and Close Calls" subforum here.

A voltmeter (or DMM) is indeed essential equipment to have for adequate monitoring, in my opinion.

Lots of advice around, but be careful and stay safe :thumbsup:
 
Last edited:

MikeAusC

Enlightened
Joined
Jul 8, 2010
Messages
995
Location
Sydney, Australia
Yeah, I've rad all the manufacturers' Datasheets that warn about the problems of long term storage at 100% charge, but my experience suggests the problem is exaggerated.

My laptop stays on 24 hrs a day, so the batteries are hot and fully charged all the time. After 5 years the battery pack still has good capacity.
 

HKJ

Flashaholic
Joined
Mar 26, 2008
Messages
9,715
Location
Copenhagen, Denmark
Yeah, I've rad all the manufacturers' Datasheets that warn about the problems of long term storage at 100% charge, but my experience suggests the problem is exaggerated.

My laptop stays on 24 hrs a day, so the batteries are hot and fully charged all the time. After 5 years the battery pack still has good capacity.

Some laptops do reduce the charge voltage, if they are plugged in most of them time.

I have seen some LiIon batteries loose a lot of capacity over a few years (Sorry, no measurements) and I do hope the newer batteries are better, but I have not tested it.
 

neutralwhite

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 18, 2012
Messages
3,202
Location
London Heathrow
so say in Hong Kong where its mostly humidity and like 29-32c, how would you store them then?.
are they safe in a airtight container in a fridge ?.
thanks.
 

HKJ

Flashaholic
Joined
Mar 26, 2008
Messages
9,715
Location
Copenhagen, Denmark
so say in Hong Kong where its mostly humidity and like 29-32c, how would you store them then?.
are they safe in a airtight container in a fridge ?.
thanks.

The problem with humidity is that in condense to water when cooled down, i.e. inside the container you will get some water, when you put it in the fridge.
Air at 30C can contain 880g/m3, at 5C it can only contain 200g/m3, any excess water in the air will show up as dew (Both numbers are for 100%RH). To avoid dew going from 30C to 5C, you must only have 20%RH at 30C.
 
Top