XML2 - XPG2 lights where only a small upgrade over predecesors. We can take a break.

I think from manufacturers, where mostly going to see repackaging of the same LED's in either multiple arrays, or different body designs with different mode schemes for awhile.

This harkens back to a previous discussion about a year ago that we've reached "peak LED" and "peak 18650"

What's going to change looking forward is the tension of the luminance rubber band. Lux at one end and a set number of lumens on the other.

But isn't this liberating? You can go in and pickup the latest light, and now, and know it's going to be state-of-the-art for at least another year or two. The incremental changes in improvement (if any) won't be worth the upgrade cost.

Finally we've reached a point in diminishing returns.

I'm set. How about you?

If sheer output is your end goal, then maybe.

If quality of that output - ie. CRI, tint, evenness of output, etc. - is what you care for, then there is still a long way to go, and I'm champing at the bit for any new emitter that can improve on these factors.

Sent from my Galaxy Tab II. Please excuse typos because the kaybkard on this thing is terrible!

I only have experience with XP-G2 emitters but I find that the XP-G2 has a better tint than XP-G and XM-L emitters. I don't know if I have just been lucky with the tints that I have received but I find that the XP-G2 emitters are more of a pure white with a slight purple tinge than off white with a slight green tint that the XM-L or the slight blue tint that the XP-G has.

Yeah I get the impression the tint shift is better. The phosphor chemistry hasn't improved from my understanding (best they can do) but efficiency is improved through a change in die texture and eliminating current spreaders in the new chips.

Basically moving things around. No leaps to be seen here.

P60 host. When there is a new emitter out, I don't need to get a brand new light--just a new light engine, which is more financially sound.

nailbender and vinhnguyen54 can make the mind-boggling drop-ins at very affordable cost. I got myself vinh's XM-L2 drop-in driven at 4.2A to put out 1,300 OTF lumens for, what, less than $50. If I chose the mass-production route, I'd have to pay around $100 every time I upgraded.

So, yeah, bring it on!

I'd hardly call a 20% increase in output marginal. Cree also managed to do this while keeping the electronic and mechanical aspects the same, so those LEDs are able to be used on their predecessor's drivers and reflectors with no changes. Further, they did this while keeping the price the same, so the transition wasn't / isn't as costly for those running drop-in hosts. The 5% smaller hot spot on the XP-G2 is also pretty significant when combined with the 20% greater output. I don't know if the 3rd gen of Cree X lamps will have such a significant increase in output, but the 2nd gen was a pretty nice step up over the 1st gen.

If I'm not mistaken, the average increase is 13%. It could be even less for other bins. And they'll still get the "2" gen designation. The 20% is the theoretical benchmark.

If I'm not mistaken, the average increase is 13%. It could be even less for other bins. And they'll still get the "2" gen designation. The 20% is the theoretical benchmark.

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You have to adjust for the binning now being at 85 degrees C on the Gen 2 lamps vs. 25 degrees C on previous lamps. Even at a 13% average increase vs. the stated "up to 20% increase" Cree states, that 13% increase is still very significant. It may not be visually significant, but a 13% increase in output for a 0% increase in input is huge in electronics. They still get the Gen 2 designation because the emitter itself is physically different. You can even see it by looking at the surface of the emitters.

scsmith said:

You have to adjust for the binning now being at 85 degrees C on the Gen 2 lamps vs. 25 degrees C on previous lamps. Even at a 13% average increase vs. the stated "up to 20% increase" Cree states, that 13% increase is still very significant. It may not be visually significant, but a 13% increase in output for a 0% increase in input is huge in electronics. They still get the Gen 2 designation because the emitter itself is physically different. You can even see it by looking at the surface of the emitters.

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Yup. They've improved the die texture, removed an anode wire and removed the in die current distribution grid. There's more phosphor real estate to extract lumens from. The phosphor hasn't changed hence the same binning codes. Yes, 13% is an improvement, and to me, it is worth an upgrade. But I'm an elitist (to an extent) and want the best. To a realist, your best performing 1st gen BIN XX can match the output of your average performing 2nd gen BIN XX. So it's still really an apple's to apple's kind of thing.

Will there be a 3rd gen XPG-XML? Maybe. But i'm betting we probably won't know, for awhile.

That's why I'm content. Heat, host size and battery efficiency are now the biggest problem. They are like two book ends on our continuing saga. Until those move, we are just updating pages.

I like that right now from Cree we have 3-modern emitters filling different applications nicely.

XM-L2 - High efficacy, high output, ok throw
XP-G2 - Almost as high efficacy, medium-high output, good throw
XP-E2 - Good efficacy, medium output, far throw

Every time someone says something along the lines of "Everything that can be invented has surely already been invented by now...", something else comes along as a another breakthrough.

It might be like planning a picnic if you need it to rain?

Seems to me that the best thing is not to put all your eggs in one basket.
In other words with a large collection of lights, upgrade some of them with the latest current emitters and leave others be until even better ones come along.

+1 on what enomosiki said. All my lights are P60 based and when a new drop in comes out I just get one from Vinh or NB. That's why i recommend 18650'd 6Ps, but people sometimes just want out the the box.

The lumens race is at both ends. How low can you go and how bright can you go. Yes, the XP-G2 is an improvement over the XP-G. But should I throw out (or not buy a light) because it only has the XP-G?

Tint is where they need to improve. The MCE is still a good standard and it isn't new. The Nichia 219 is another standard. But these emitters have faults - efficiency, ability to be driven hard to achieve lumens. Throw vs. flood.

Li-ion cells are similar. Is an 18650 3400 that much better than 18650 2900? Do I really need to go out and replace all of my 2900 cells? I don't think so.

But the point of the thread is, can we take a break and relax and not buy the latest and greatest because it isn't really that big leap in improvement? Personally, I'm beginning to think so because I'm starting to buy higher priced, higher quality lights.

But I agree - if you want to take advantage of the improvements, P60 dropins are the way to go.

I buy P60's of new emitters to tie me over till I see the newer emitter in a light I want to purchase. I never have just one of an emitter :naughty:

don't try and make sense of my sickness LOL don't you dare

Will I wait for an xml3 before buying another light? No



To put it as best I can;
I hope there is always a new emitter on the horizon and a light with a New UI in the mail that's how I role

I'm pretty happy with my 2AA XP-G2 Quark Pro and my Solarforce L2 with an XM-L U2 drop-in right now. When I get some money I might update my Solarforce with an XM-L2 or better drop-in but there's no rush. The Quark probably won't be replaced or updated for a couple more years. That's the advantage of buying the best. I think we are at a point where l.e.d. technology is getting cheaper and good enough to last. The days of the showerhead l.e.d. flashlight that burns out after 2 sets of batteries are over. We now have cheap, bright, efficient l.e.d.s from good manufacturers for under a buck each. Newer and better l.e.d.s are coming out all the time and what we have now is more than functional. When I am content with what I have for now, and I see something that is constantly getting better and dropping in price, I can wait awhile for a more appealling product at a low enough price point to tempt me enough to spend more money.

XML2 - XPG2 lights where only a small upgrade over predecesors. We can take a

I'm still using lights with Luxeons and SSC P4s in them. I was set like 5 years ago. :laughing:

Re: XML2 - XPG2 lights where only a small upgrade over predecesors.

I'm sort of in agreement. I first got into lights about a year ago and have done a fair amount of buying, selling, and trading and I'm now completely happy with the lights I have. I pretty much have a perfect light in every for factor.

Keychain Light - Trustfire Mini-01 w/ IMR16340
EDC - Zebralight SC52 w/ IMR 14500
Bigger EDC - Solarforce L2T w/ 4.53A 3-mode XM-L Neutral
Dog-Walking Light - Nitecore EA4
Spotlight - Stanley FatMax XM-L
Wife's Keychain Light - iTP A3 ELS Upgraded 3-mode w/ 10440

I no longer pine for more lights... It's actually quite nice. I'm moving on to knives for a while...

Re: XML2 - XPG2 lights where only a small upgrade over predecesors.

ThirstyTurtle said:

... I no longer pine for more lights...

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Then you can't truly be called a Flashaholic. :nana:

I joined in 2004 and still crave more lights (even though I have over 60) .... Help!

Re: XML2 - XPG2 light only a small upgrade over predecesors. We can take a break.

easilyled said:

Then you can't truly be called a Flashaholic. :nana:

I joined in 2004 and still crave more lights (even though I have over 60) .... Help!

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You might be right; I may not be a flashaholic compared to members of this community but as much as I've learned about emitters, batteries, chargers, drivers, heat syncing, etc. I am definitely a flashaholic compared to most people. Plus I have at least two lights on me at any given moment capable of 500+ lumens... Most people don't even own a light that powerful, much less carry one on their key chain. Anyways, sorry to digress from topic but I for one will probably wait another year or so until some substantial gains have been made