ErgoMarine cloned - help CPF friends!

Dear CPF friends,

We've had our EternaLight product ripped off (cloned) before in Singapore. Fortunately, the reverse engineering was so bad that they produced a product that was grossly inferior. Thus, we have never bothered to worry.

However, about 2 years ago, a catalog company, Gadget Universe (www.gadgetuniverse.com), ordered about $10,000 worth of our ErgoMarine products (at wholesale catalog pricing). We shipped the units to them faithfully, UPS COD company check. They supplied NSF checks for payment (OUCH!). After further pressuring, they supplied further NSF checks for payment. Finally with no other choice, a report was filed with the Los Angeles County District Attorney. To this day, we've never received restitution or even word back about any action. However, Gadget Universe continues to operate without a hitch. Were it just that, I could still sleep at night.

However, in their most recent catalogs, they are featuring a product with a remarkable likeness and almost exact replication of function and wording of our ErgoMarine flashlight product. Oddly, only they and their sister company seem to carry this.

For comparison,
Here is our product:
ErgoMarine

Here is theirs:
ErgoMarine Rip-Off

You will note there are physical deviations from our product. And there are some physical adaptations as well. But it infuriates me that they didn't even have the care to change the functional order or the names of those functions or
the buttons as well.

I am humbling asking CPF members for help in this injustice in two ways. 1. If possible, a technical evaluation of their unit which, as a 3rd party, you compare the similarities with our product.
2. A CPF performance comparison with our product.

Now, I don't expect everyone to buy both products on our behalf. For the first 25 people who fax me a copy of your receipt showing that you've purchased their unit, I'll send you an ErgoMarine unit for free for you to compare.

Performing task number 1 will help us with any legal options that we may have available. Number 2 may help us compete in the market, assuming we've still got a better product.

I'm sure they've commissioned a chinese or other foreign company to design and build this unit for them based on ours. This is a classic strategy used by companies who lack any creative or innovative skills.

While the plastic for our Elite Series in molded in China, the balance of assembly is performed right here in Nevada USA and all the Ergo Series including molding is done in the USA.

The CPF has been a powerful tool in helping us craft products from your valuable input. I'm hoping that it will also be useful in helping to protect companies dedicated to this cause against those with no scruples.

If nothing else, please reply to keep this topic fresh. Thanks in advance for any assistance.

Well, it does look differant and they claim it has a "diamond hard head" for breaking car windows. Also it claims to have a razor type knife for cutting seat belts.

Other than it has four lights in a row...and uses similar/same circitry to control the light, I don`t see much similarity. Do you have a patent still in force to protect the electronic circit from copy...what about the 4 lights in a row...any patent on that concept? I know your upset but unless there are legal rights you have protecting these things...I don`t see much you can do. I don`t really think this light will be much of a threat as yours is well known and loved.

Ken

LEDs in a hand held package with batteries is nothing unique. We pioneered uP control in flashlights. The modes, subfunctions, functional order, names and buttons used as well as the LEDS in a row are our trademark traits and aspects of are patented. There is an endless number of possibilities in this regard, why make an exact copy? That asside, patents are all but worthless when fighting multiple companies with offshore production. You may be granted injunctions, after major expense, preventing sale or distribution, but proving deliberate infringement by a seller utilising a third party manufacturer, who is not bound to US patent laws or outside of practical enforcement, is an expensive endeavor even large corprations would prefer to avoid.

I think you would agree that copying the guts of the Bose Wave Radio and putting it a different package, with a windshield spike and seat belt cutter is still infringement and unscruplous. But, thanks much for your input.

Just ordered one. Will fax you the receipt in a few minutes. Glad to help any company that is fighting the battle against knockoffs.

I actually saw these in a catalog somewhere, I'll see if I can locate that again. I immediately connected this light with yours, due mostly to the combination of the 3 buttons, their names and the graphics on them. It's obviously a vertical layout of your own layout.

Of course, my own naive conclusion was "Oh cool, they are contracting with techass for their electronics..."

I'm sorry to learn that is not the case!

You could focus a lot of time and energy on preserving the status quo with that light or spend it on R&D for new products. Arc is working on a dimmable Luxeon with programmable functions. I think many here would like to see your company come out with a unique Luxeon based product too. A dimmable, programmable 3W light would prove very popular, at least in the CPF community.

RonM - thanks I look forward to your evaluation.
JamesS - thankyou, glas to see you noted this too.
PhotonBoy - Yes, its in the works (The Punch). But, no company will ever make it if competition overruns them before they can recoup their R&D expenses. This is challenging enough in a fair environement let alone with dirty players.

Thanks!

Well please don`t misunderstand me...I would not be very happy about it either. But like you say it could be expensive to stop it. Perhaps have your atterny send them a threatening letter...might have some affect. I guess I would have to decide if I felt the threat was high enough...if you do nothing will the Statute of Limitations protect them from you being able to pursue this later? How much time do you have. I know at one point you were interested in selling some/all of the company...would the falure to sdrees this diminish the value to a prospective customer...I bet it might...but I don`t know.

But if we order 25 of them and take you up on your great offer...won`t that company just think they have a great seller...and order an even larger # of them allowing them to offer them at a lower price? Myself...I would be really pissed over the unpaid $10000 order and sue them. Keeping in mind that when you win...they will have to pay your legal expenses. But...you would have to act soon...before S.O.Limitations kicks in and your out of luck.

Ken

Our buying practices today affect our buying choices tomorrow.

Peter

Ken,

A crimal charge has already been filed. I don't want to get in the particulars of how they got away with it here, but suffice to say the culprit has left the country but has a large family. A civil suit was already filed too, we're in a line behind quite a few other companies who they've also screwed. Unfortunately, $10,000 isn't worth much of legal fight, attorney fees will quickly exceed that, we've already done everything we can do. What I'm asking for here is ammunition in marketing and infringement for the future if another source pops out. OK, so I've helped sell 25 units from the *******s or bought them (however you look at it). Hardly a drop in the bucket for the value of what I'm hoping to get back from this group. I do appreciate your genuine concern. Thanks!

People don't seem to realize how many individual inventors and companies are destroyed by knockoffs.

It seems like the general public doesn't care. People just want to get the lowest price possible, with no thought of the implications. Gransee put it best, "Our buying practices today affect our buying choices tomorrow."

Technology Associates is much more likely to R&D a Luxeon version of their product (or some other new light) if they can confidently bring it to market w/o worries of it being illegally copied.

Think before you buy. Heck, I felt guilty ordering the ErgoMarine knockoff, even though it was to help MrEternaLight.

Peter - Succinct and profound! I only wish as consumers we had more discipline. And then, there are the ones who are just ignorant about the choices. We all fall into that category on some purchase somewhere. Unfortunately, that tends to be the majority. Thanks!

I hate to say it, but knock-offs are part of the game. The key is to make your money before being knocked-off, and try to stay ahead of the competition.

You CAN do something about the $10,000 (if it is worth it). I doubt that you could do much about their knock-off except claim that yours is better.

For a little info about the real use of patents, check here: http://www.tinaja.com/patnt01.html

I am not sure what your patents are, but I can tell you that I have taken your Ergo apart (I had to install the batteries). One way to bust a patent is to simply demonstrate that your idea is obvious to "any practicioner in the field." Your products are wonderful and rather innovative. But, honestly, if somebody has come to me and thrown a handful of white LEDs at me, it is quite possible that I, as an enginner, could have come up with a product that has similar functionality to yours. So I am not sure how much scrutiny your patent would withstand in a court (if you could even afford the lawyers to defend it).

The best way to defeat them is to simply keep doing what you are doing: make interesting and innovative products. You already have a good word-of-mouth reputation, which they probably do not. I know of you, I have not heard of them before.

Best of luck...

MrEternaLight:

In order to help us decide if we as particular individuals are "qualified" to help, could you please give a dbit more detail on what you mean by:
1. If possible, a technical evaluation of their unit which, as a 3rd party, you compare the similarities with our product.
2. A CPF performance comparison with our product.

(I would hate to pick up one of a limited number of "free"
ErgoMarine lights, and then not be able to provide a USEFUL service in return.)

HarrKev - Thanks for your informative comment. First to market has been our strategy for a long time. Rolling over and giving up is not one. I am a fan of Don's and have read quite a bit of his material. I reached the same conclusions in this regard long ago. This forum is an excellent source of information and evaluative comment. That is simply all we are trying to cultivate at this point. How we use it in the future , litigeously or for marketing battles is uncertain. But, it will be useful to us. Certainly, we hope to continue to provide innovations, it is what we enjoy doing most but its costs are high.

Stainless - thank you for your consideration. If I said more, I think I would be spoiling the soup. Free thought and undirected discovery is the garden we're hoping to harvest from here (pardon the methaphor). Thanks!

[ QUOTE ]
Gransee said:
Our buying practices today affect our buying choices tomorrow.

Peter

[/ QUOTE ]

How very true /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

As long as we keep in mind that it is also true that the products a manufacture chooses to bring to market determines our buying practices.
Ken

Just sent you my recipt . Love to help you with this.Sent the reciet twice , second time with my e-mail in case you need it . I wish you the best.

This really makes me angry...This is horribly and economically unsound...This will kill off innovation...

I don't have a credit card, so I can't buy one of these lights. And I already have an Ergo Marine, so I really don't need another one. Guess that leaves me in a bit of a pickle here. :\

Craig,

Maybe somebody that purchased the knockoff can let you borrow it and do your own evaluation against the Ergo Marine.