Urban lighting can really deflate our sense of power in our lights.

ledmitter_nli · Jun 21, 2013

Try this test if you believe your LED light is "super bright". (This excludes you HID folks

)

Go to a parking lot or the park. Or any wide clear expanse for that matter. Place the light somewhere at a height that gives the brightest beam cast possible. Ah, impressive light, right? Walk about 15 yards away from it and not directly square with the hotspot (if any). Angle off a little. Look towards the light.

What a puny looking light source, aye?

Just think, the average street or parking lot lamp is putting out in excess of 16,000 lumens. The average billboard ad lights - 10,000 lumens. And those don't necessarily look startlingly bright to us either. They dot the landscape everywhere.

Flashaholics who aim to impress with ever increasing lumens really have a long ways to go, especially in urban settings. Probably a lot more than we realize(d).

Call this a lesson in flashaholic trials-and-tribulations if you will. Because these are my conclusions so far after 1 year being here June 2012.

From an EDC personal lighting standpoint, I think resources are better spent on the quality of our lights for much closer ranges, and not the quantity of light. There's so much that can be improved with LED fidelity and matching LED(s) with the best beam shapes. I figured we're not going to see substantial lumen increases with high fidelity LEDs anytime soon. So that HI-CRI EDC parking lot light is 10 years away.

From a tactical standpoint, I think if you're trying to temporarily blind someone (or something), resources are better spent on the intensity of lux concentration of that light, and not so much for overall intensity and flood. If the center of its hotspot is 3,000 lumens bright and I can see well enough with its spill, then we've achieved something better. Will a quad dropin do it? Nope. Too floody. Will the MT-G2 do it? Nope. Not in an EDC size, also floody. And not without a bigger reflector. A 3,000 lumen floody light isn't going to blind like a 1,000 lumen light with a tight hotspot can. An EDC sized single XM-L2 in the 1,200 lumen range is the best we're going to do until at least the next gen.

Maybe I'm being cynical?

Probably not.

But the journey has been fun. I've learned a lot.

Grunsven · Jun 21, 2013

You're looking at it from the wrong perspective. The flashlights are fine but there is way to much urban lighting.
The great thing of a flashlight is it gives you light where and when you need it and is not just throwing it around.

ledmitter_nli · Jun 21, 2013

The EDC (to me it's a 1X18650) sized flashlights are fine, right now, for either lots of throw or lots of flood, but not both.

For instance, for P60 drop in EDC sized lights, it's impossible to have massive flood and massive lux all in one.

Take the EagleTac TX25C2.

According to Selfbuilt:

It's pushing upwards of 20,000 LUX at 1 meter thanks to it's single LED, smooth reflector and just 960 lumens. To achieve that sort of lux @ 1 meter with say a floody quad XP-G2 P60 sized dropin in a similarly sized 18650 light, I'd need about 4,000+ lumens according to my estimates. For tactical purposes the TX25C2 is just way more efficient as a tactical light. If I want my tactical light to have lots of flood like the quad XP-G2, then I really need a completely different light. I can't have both with today's tech.

The smaller in scale you go with flashlights, the more black and white things really do become.

kwak · Jun 21, 2013

You say you've been here for a year yet you've entirely missed the point why most of us carry flashlights.

Sure a street light will be more powerful, not exactly mobile though is it

I've had several times i've helped mates out when their cars have broken down where they're parked under a street light, still couldn't see diddly squat under the bonnet without my flashlight.

Flashlights are portable sources of light that can be used to shine light on a specific place, or to be used when street lights fail or are not available.

With regards to using a flashlight for self defence.
Personally i would not CHOOSE to use a flashlight as self defence, if i had one to hand then i'd use it any way i can, but to specify a lights functions specifically for self defence seems very very silly to me as there are better things that can be carried that would do a FAR better job of defending you.

So i think you've missed the entire point of this forum be a fair old margin

WilsonCQB1911 · Jun 21, 2013

kwak said:
You say you've been here for a year yet you've entirely missed the point why most of us carry flashlights.

Sure a street light will be more powerful, not exactly mobile though is it

I've had several times i've helped mates out when their cars have broken down where they're parked under a street light, still couldn't see diddly squat under the bonnet without my flashlight.

Flashlights are portable sources of light that can be used to shine light on a specific place, or to be used when street lights fail or are not available.

With regards to using a flashlight for self defence.
Personally i would not CHOOSE to use a flashlight as self defence, if i had one to hand then i'd use it any way i can, but to specify a lights functions specifically for self defence seems very very silly to me as there are better things that can be carried that would do a FAR better job of defending you.

So i think you've missed the entire point of this forum be a fair old margin

That seems unnecessarily harsh. I think he was just trying to stimulate some thought and discussion. And also put into perspective how even our most powerful flashlights aren't really as powerful as we might think.

ledmitter_nli · Jun 21, 2013

I never mentioned self defence. I want to blind pesky cats in heat singing serenades outside in the back yard

I think it's a well known underlying attraction here, that a lot of us like high powered lights for the cool factor. "Mine's brighter than yours, so nyah!"

However bright it is, when seen from afar, the big outdoors tempers that, and by a lot. It's really a moot observation regarding the current state of our craft.

kwak · Jun 21, 2013

ledmitter_nli said:
I never mentioned self defence. I want to blind pesky cats in heat singing serenades outside in the back yard

I think if you're trying to temporarily blind someone

Might be worth editing that to something then, but then blinding cats is illegal so it might be worth considering using self defence as a scenario.

ledmitter_nli said:
I think it's a well known underlying attraction here, that a lot of us like hight powered lights for the cool factor. "Mine's brighter than than yours, so nyah!" However bright it is, the big outdoors tempers that, and by a lot. It's really a moot observation regarding the current state of our craft.

But there is absolutely no comparison to a main powered light and a battery powered flashlight.
Of course a mains powered light is going to be brighter, having a pretty much endless high power supply (compared to batteries) and not having to make compromises on size or weight makes a MASSIVE difference.

You may as well compare say a helicopter search to a keychain light as well as that's as pointless a comparison as the previous one.

There are very very few half decent quality non HID torches that have only only one output setting, add to that the vast choice we have as buyers in selecting our lights and it's really up to us to select a light that has the right lumens, tint and beam pattern for our purposes.
As an example, i've been EDCing various SC600's for a few years now, it's very rare i use the turbo mode BUT it's there if i need it.

Likewise my motorbike will exceed 160mph, but it's my choice as to how much of the bikes power i use.

If i had narrowed my choice of potential buys down to 2 torches and beam pattern, tint, UI, size etc were very very similar then i would choose the one with the higher output.
Not because i'm out to impress some strangers on the internet that i've never met, but simply because i might need those extra lumens sometimes so it's nce to have them there just in case.

ledmitter_nli · Jun 21, 2013

I'll change it to something

Also I'm not questioning if having more lumens is wrong or not. Of course, we all want that extra headroom. (There's already a thread "How many lumens is enough?") But with smaller lights one has to make more rigid choices. I've simply opted to choose enough lumens to fit my usage patterns and improve on the quality of that amount of light in two ways. Beam shape and CRI. For instance, I can erase a large blot of darkness in front of me with a 1,700 lumen light, but the quality of that light might not be as good as my other 1,100 lumen light. It's also too bright considering the frequency of my usage patterns. Since I don't *need* to blot out large swaths of darkness all at once, I'm able to improve on my already met requirements by opting for a lower lumen alternative. Since I can still see well enough with 1,100 lumens and since the quality of what I'm seeing is also improved, I don't view the decrease in output as a net loss. I've actually gained.

So what does it mean? It means my approach to personal lighting has matured. I guess.

Kestrel · Jun 21, 2013

kwak said:
Sure a street light will be more powerful, not exactly mobile though is it [...]

In a related note; forget about rainjackets - I much prefer buildings for staying dry.

Knight_Light · Jun 21, 2013

ledmitter_nli said:
From a tactical standpoint, I think if you're trying to temporarily blind someone (or something), resources are better spent on the intensity of lux concentration of that light, and not so much for overall intensity and flood. If the center of its hotspot is 3,000 lumens bright and I can see well enough with its spill, then we've achieved something better. Will a quad dropin do it? Nope. Too floody. Will the MT-G2 do it? Nope. Not in an EDC size, also floody. And not without a bigger reflector. A 3,000 lumen floody light isn't going to blind like a 1,000 lumen light with a tight hotspot can. An EDC sized single XM-L2 in the 1,200 lumen range is the best we're going to do until the next gen.

Tactical lighting's main function is not defensive in nature. It's not meant to temporarily blind somebody (even though that is a characteristic associated with it). Tactical lighting (especially if it's weapon mounted) is to identify and illuminate possible threats. It has nothing to do with spot or flood. Certain situations will require spot and others flood.

HighlanderNorth · Jun 21, 2013

Kestrel said:
In a related note; forget about rainjackets - I much prefer buildings for staying dry.

I was inside a local grocery store during the deluge of rain we received on tuesday(3+"), and that grocery store did a better job of not only keeping me dry, but lowering the humidity and making me more comfortable. But when it was time for me to walk back outside, I found it impossible to fold up that grocery store and put it in my pocket for the next rainy day! Just joking BTW...

Seriously though, this discussion is all relative. What makes today's quality top o the line lights so impressive is the fact that they are MUCH brighter than incandescent flashlights, even when using a fraction of the battery power. That, and they are much brighter than top o the line LED lights of just 8-10 years ago as well. It's not about comparing a single 18650 sized light against a 1500 pound, 20-30 foot HID street light that runs on a huge coal fired power plant. But I gotta say, if the average street light puts out 15000 lumens, considering the aforementioned size and weight specs of that street light, then I find it very impressive that a handheld light that runs on 3 batteries and weighs a pound or so can output 1/5th that amount of light even though its obviously FAR more compact.

You have to compare apples to apples, and all you have to do is walk outside after dark with a new 4 D cell Maglight in one hand and just about any good quality LED light in the other hand with half or less the battery mass, and compare the two. There are 1-AA lights that are significantly brighter than that 4-D cell Maglight. Imagine comparing the 4-D cell Fenix TK70 with a 4-D cell Maglight. The TK70 is literally 40+ times brighter!

But I can understand what the OP author is saying though, because just a few days ago I was inside during the daytime at a friends house, and I switched my SC52 on high and pointed it at a wall about 6 feet away, and it certainly didn't seem very bright.

BillSWPA · Jun 21, 2013

Knight_Light said:
Tactical lighting's main function is not defensive in nature. It's not meant to temporarily blind somebody (even though that is a characteristic associated with it). Tactical lighting (especially if it's weapon mounted) is to identify and illuminate possible threats. It has nothing to do with spot or flood. Certain situations will require spot and others flood.

Actually, it is to buy yourself about a 1/2 second advantage by shining the light in your adversary's eyes, forcing them to adjust and throwing a temporary monkey wrench in their OODA (observe, orient, decide, act) loop. This applies regardless of whether a light is used in conjunction with something else.

If I am just identifying potential threats, I can do that with a $5 keychain light from the local big box discount store. A tactical light needs to do more.

Even so, I do not want to blind anyone, even temporarily. What if the potential threat you are identifying turns out to be harmless?

jaycyu · Jun 21, 2013

You know you're a flashaholic when you start to hate the urban landscape.

Knight_Light · Jun 21, 2013

BillSWPA said:
Actually, it is to buy yourself about a 1/2 second advantage by shining the light in your adversary's eyes, forcing them to adjust and throwing a temporary monkey wrench in their OODA (observe, orient, decide, act) loop. This applies regardless of whether a light is used in conjunction with something else.

If I am just identifying potential threats, I can do that with a $5 keychain light from the local big box discount store. A tactical light needs to do more.

Even so, I do not want to blind anyone, even temporarily. What if the potential threat you are identifying turns out to be harmless?

You go ahead and do that, use your five dollars keychain light in a tactical situation at 50+ yards. lol

ledmitter_nli · Jun 21, 2013

Er go ... a light with a LOT of LUX and a little spill (enough to process your surroundings) is more tactically useful than a light with just Some LUX and MORE spill which pretty much encompasses the majority of tactical lights out there.

papershredder · Jun 21, 2013

Knight_Light said:
Tactical lighting's main function is not defensive in nature. It's not meant to temporarily blind somebody (even though that is a characteristic associated with it). Tactical lighting (especially if it's weapon mounted) is to identify and illuminate possible threats. It has nothing to do with spot or flood. Certain situations will require spot and others flood.

It works both ways. If you can see them, they can see you. =)

inetdog · Jun 21, 2013

papershredder said:
It works both ways. If you can see them, they can see you. =)

Which is why you need your towel with you at all times.

idleprocess · Jun 22, 2013

ledmitter_nli said:
Go to a parking lot or the park. Or any wide clear expanse for that matter. Place the light somewhere at a height that gives the brightest beam cast possible. Ah, impressive light, right? Walk about 15 yards away from it and not directly square with the hotspot (if any). Angle off a little. Look towards the light.

What a puny looking light source, aye?

Just think, the average street or parking lot lamp is putting out in excess of 16,000 lumens. The average billboard ad lights - 10,000 lumens. And those don't necessarily look startlingly bright to us either. They dot the landscape everywhere.

Flashaholics who aim to impress with ever increasing lumens really have a long ways to go, especially in urban settings. Probably a lot more than we realize(d).

If it's bright enough that your light source isn't impressive, then it's usually bright enough that you don't need it.

For many tasks at night, black-and-white night vision - even with all its lack of detail - is more useful than color vision. Even dilated pupils without night vision fully kicking in are useful, especially in the mixed-bag conditions of the average urban area. With adapted night vision, you can typically see well enough to navigate and can see much further and more area than you can with the small area of detailed color vision that a flashlight is likely to grant - especially with near terrain or foliage to dilate your pupils.

I learned this lesson about night vision the hard way once when camping. Around sunset I wandered a few hundred yards from the campsite for about an hour, lit my flashlight to return in the darkness only to discover that I couldn't see beyond the next tree branch or brush. I wandered around disoriented for a few minutes with no familiar landmarks and no apparent path. I turned off the flashlight for some reason or another and stood around for a moment to calm down then realized as my night vision recovered I was able to see almost all the way to the campsite through the foliage. It was at that point that I began to appreciate the benefits of lower-intensity flashlights and using them sparingly when detail was necessary.

In the sprawling Dallas/Fort Worth area, I find that I almost never truly need a flashlight to walk around at night. Streetlights, parking lot lights, porch lights, the somewhat nearby airport, outdoor lighting for football/baseball fields, billboards, and the moon make it bright enough that the stars are generally obscured, thus there's enough light to navigate anywhere but the woods, back alleys, or anywhere that's truly pitch black. I mostly use flashlights outdoors for the occasional place that's too dark to see or make out some important detail.

Of course, the point of small, lightweight, battery-powered flashlights isn't to compete with large, mains-powered, stationary lighting. Even a low gross lumens flashlight can direct a great deal of intensity onto a subject - oftentimes more than a streetlight - on demand, which is their utility.

I've got stupidly powerful lights, multi-mode flashlights, and dim flashlights. I find myself using the latter two most often since I rarely need to reach out into the distance to see in the city but often need to make out detail up close.

Knight_Light · Jun 22, 2013

papershredder said:
It works both ways. If you can see them, they can see you. =)

Well that's when experience and common sense should come into play. And a little bit of luck trumps both of them.

Aaron1100us · Jun 22, 2013

I think our flashlights are mote powerful than we realize. I live in a city and use my flashlights at work mostly. They still seem pretty bright in the city. Buy when I'm out in the country, they seem rediculously bright

.

Imagine taking these new high power LED's back to the 50's? Heck, I remember just a few years ago when I thought the Surefire M6 @500 lumens was just insane. Now thats nothing.

Sent from my SCH-R760 using Tapatalk 2

Urban lighting can really deflate our sense of power in our lights.

Flashlight Enthusiast

Newly Enlightened

Flashlight Enthusiast

Enlightened

Enlightened

Flashlight Enthusiast

Enlightened

Flashlight Enthusiast

Flashaholic

Enlightened

Flashlight Enthusiast

Enlightened

Enlightened

Enlightened

Flashlight Enthusiast

Newly Enlightened

Enlightened

Flashaholic

Enlightened

Enlightened

Similar threads