Original TK-75 VS. New TK-75

Capolini · Aug 12, 2013

Good evening everyone. This is my First "Thread" Bare with me!! Let the drama unfold!

First I would like to say that I am an amateur, I do NOT have equipment like Selfbuilt, Subwoofer and others.This test/review was done strictly with the naked eye, evaluating the brightness, intensity, throw and flood capabilities of each light. Remember, just an opinion and evaluation by me!

Ok, let's get started[ sound familiar!].

I will start by saying the reason I got the "New" TK-75 was strictly for its advertized improvement in PBI[Candelas].

Here are the numbers according to "Fenix". Again, keep in mind this is based on their testing and my Eye to try to validate their improvements.

Edit:Forgot to put in what "type" of Emitters/LED's the torches have!

Original TK-75 has XM-L[U2]
New TK-75 has XM-L2[U2]

According to "Cree's" website the XM-L2[U2] are suppose to have 20% more output than the XM-L[U2].

Original TK-75, 2600 Lumens-max. Modes:L-18, Med.-400, High-1100, Turbo-2600
New TK-75, 2900 Lumens-max. Modes : L-25, Med.-450, High-1200, Turbo-2900

There really is NOT much difference here in Output when modes are compared.Again, the numbers above are NOT the reason I got it. That is next!

Original TK-75-Beam distance[throw]- 662 yards[606 meters],PBI[Candelas]- 92,000.
New TK-75-Beam distance[throw]- 754 yards[ 690 meters],PBI[Candelas]-119,500.

This is a novice and an amateurs way of thinking! It seems logical , but I may be totally wrong!

The difference in Candelas seemed significant to me. That was the main reason I got it. A difference of plus 27,500 Candelas for the New TK-75.The only way I could equate that is like this. My first decent light was a Jetbeam BC-40 which has a Candela rating of 29,600[that's what it says on my box and the website]. So I am thinking that is like adding most of my Jetbeams PBI[Candelas] to my "Original" TK-75!!!

Here is my conclusion"

I saw very, very little if any difference in output. throw and flood appeared to be the same.

I stood 100 yards away from a big tree with others surrounding it. I did what selfbuilt does! One light in Left hand and the other in Right hand, taking turns of turning them on and off and also slowly scanning the area.

Final thoughts and "Only" my suggestions.
If you do not have a TK-75 and can afford one, get one. It is a great light.
If the price is the same for both, I would get the "New TK-75". If the price goes higher for the "New TK-75, stick with the "Original!!

If a "Comparative" review was done strictly with these Two Torches, I would be surprised if the ANSI/NEMA FL1 STANDARDS STOOD UP for the "New TK-75".

I could of done this review succinctly with either of these Two words. "No difference" or "Very disappointed"

:sigh::thumbsdow

Finally, I would greatly appreciate any feedback in regards to my simple minded review! Most of you are much more qualified in doing tests and understanding all the variables involved. However, I do have very good vision, again as far as intensity of the hot spot,,,,,there was little if any improvement with the "New TK-75". I arrest my case!!!:laughing::thanks::twothumbs

Ciao,,,,,,,,,Roberto

Badbeams3 · Aug 12, 2013

I think generally, across all makes and models, the upgrade from XML to XML-2 is not worth buying a duplicate model just for the slight performance increase. I would rather spend my money on a completely different model, or have the old one modded by one of our fine modders. So I think what you said is both true and wise.

Capolini · Aug 12, 2013

Badbeams3 said:
I think generally, across all makes and models, the upgrade from XML to XML-2 is not worth buying a duplicate model just for the slight performance increase. I would rather spend my money on a completely different model, or have the old one modded by one of our fine modders. So I think what you said is both true and wise.

Thanks,,,,,,,,I just do not understand how[their claim] 27,500 additional Candelas would not make a significant difference in beam intensity?

Overall it is not loss,,,,I will get my money back if I choose to return it! Live and learn!

Ciao,,Roberto,,"Capo di Capo" "KEEP LIGHTING UP THE DARKNESS"!
,

,

GunnarGG · Aug 12, 2013

Thanks for testing!

It's the change in percent, not absolute lumens that you will notice.

The change in total output is in the 10 % range and that is understandible that you can't notice any difference.

The change in LUX is about 30% and that I think could be seen but not very obvious, just as "one small step brighter".

The throw is improved by 85 m and maybe not noticible at 100 m distance but if you shine the light at a distance where you barely se the spot maybe you will see that the new TK75 is brighter and reaches a little further.

Sorry you didn't get more WOW out of it.
Will you keep the new light or return it?

Capolini · Aug 13, 2013

GunnarGG said:
Thanks for testing!

It's the change in percent, not absolute lumens that you will notice.

The change in total output is in the 10 % range and that is understandible that you can't notice any difference.

The change in LUX is about 30% and that I think could be seen but not very obvious, just as "one small step brighter".

The throw is improved by 85 m and maybe not noticible at 100 m distance but if you shine the light at a distance where you barely se the spot maybe you will see that the new TK75 is brighter and reaches a little further.

Sorry you didn't get more WOW out of it.
Will you keep the new light or return it?

Thanks for the reply, thanks for the input! That additional LUX was the reason I bought it and was hoping to notice but I really did not.

According to the "Cree" website the XM-L2[U2] Led's in the New TK-75 are suppose to be 20% more output than the XM-L[U2] in the original TK-75.I did not see that!I forgot to mention what kind of emitters[LED's] the lights used in my review! I have to go back an edit that!

As far as, "Keep it or return it?" Good question! in my mind, I have Two of the exact same lights! On the other hand, I love the light and could save the "NEW" TK-75 until the old one dies! Fenix outfitters- Fenix-store will give me Two weeks to make up my mind!

Thanks again

Ciao,,,,,,Roberto,,,,"Capo di Capo" "Keep Lighting Up The Darkness"!

stienke · Aug 13, 2013

What about the tint , does the new XM-L2 have a better tint? , more creamy?

Capolini · Aug 13, 2013

stienke said:
What about the tint , does the new XM-L2 have a better tint? , more creamy?

Thanks for the reply!

They appeared to be the same. then again, I was so focused on the PBI[Candelas] I am not absolutely sure on that! If I keep the New one I will investigate that!

Ciao,,,Roberto,,,,,,,,"Capo di capo" "Keep Lighting Up The Darkness"!

hivoltage · Aug 13, 2013

Hmmmm...dissapointing. I was going to get the new version and sell the old one. Now I am not so sure!

thedoc007 · Aug 13, 2013

At 100 yards, you are barely scratching the surface of the capabilities of either light, so I'm not surprised you found them to be virtually identical. If you go to a spot where you can do really long range, you might have a different conclusion. However, it seemed clear to me at the outset, by the numbers, it wasn't ever going to be a big difference.

It is an incremental upgrade designed to make it competitive with other lights from different brands, using a modern emitter. It is NOT a replacement for an existing TK75, because the difference is small. Zebralight did the same thing with the SC600. If you didn't have either, the SC600 Mark II was a no-brainer, but if you already had the first one, buying the Mark II was a waste of money...

fredted40x · Aug 13, 2013

Thanks, I probably won't be using it much for long range work but like the option so will probably find the same thing most of the time.

Might wait for the sr96. Might need to save a bit first thou. Wonder what comes after the tm26, the tm26 didn't seem as bright as I thought it be.

blah9 · Aug 13, 2013

Thank you for your thoughts on this. I was also thinking of the possibility of selling my TK75 for the new one if the throw improved noticeably, but now I will happily stick with the one I have and continue to enjoy it.

TEEJ · Aug 13, 2013

thedoc007 said:
At 100 yards, you are barely scratching the surface of the capabilities of either light, so I'm not surprised you found them to be virtually identical. If you go to a spot where you can do really long range, you might have a different conclusion. However, it seemed clear to me at the outset, by the numbers, it wasn't ever going to be a big difference.

It is an incremental upgrade designed to make it competitive with other lights from different brands, using a modern emitter. It is NOT a replacement for an existing TK75, because the difference is small. Zebralight did the same thing with the SC600. If you didn't have either, the SC600 Mark II was a no-brainer, but if you already had the first one, buying the Mark II was a waste of money...

/\ /\ /\

This

You (OP) confused/could use some help with several points:

1) The distance IS the candela (cd), so by saying you are not interested in the distance, just the cd, that is like saying you don't care how long it is, only how many feet long it is, etc.

2) Beam intensity (Lux on target) follows the inverse square law, so at double the distance, its 1/4 as bright. The human eye is TERRIBLE at brightness evaluation...and all attempts to judge the brightness in of itself are always a vulnerability for this issue.

The eye does much better at differentiation of targets. This means that if light #1 shows you a few targets, and light #2 shows you a few more, THAT you can quantify and evaluate successfully. Almost 100% of the time, a group of people will look at a beam shot on a wall, etc, and with all earnestness, tell you the 131 lumen light is brighter than the 900 lumen light....but is shone out into a field with trees and shrubs, rocks, etc, (IE: Targets), the same group will tell you they saw more THINGS with the 900 L light, and so forth.

As we use the lights to see stuff (Typically), the second scenario is typically a more useful test of a light's output.

The exception is when we want to see something just beyond the range of one light, but within the range of the second light....then, if we don't see it with one light, and we do with the second light, we know the second light has more range.

If you use 100 yards or so to try to differentiate two lights with ranges over 600 yards, its going to be too much like the white wall tests. IE: The two spots of light will BOTH stop down your pupils, and look equally bright.

You would need to set your targets at the difference between the two target's ranges...and see if one reached and the other didn't, or at least get the range out far enough so that the spot of light is not stopping your pupils down...so that you could THEN tell the difference between two spots.

3) To get an idea of the real difference in beam intensity between the two lights, some simple math might help to internalize what the numbers mean in practice:

Original TK-75-Beam distance[throw]- 662 yards[606 meters],PBI[Candelas]- 92,000.
New TK-75-Beam distance[throw]- 754 yards[ 690 meters],PBI[Candelas]-119,500.

When they describe the beam's range, its to the ANSI standard's 0.25 lux. That means that the light bouncing back to your eyes (Lux) is down to 0.25 lux by the time it gets all the way out to that range.

So, for perspective, lets look at the Original TK-75 spec of 92,000 cd, giving ~ 0.25 lux at 606 meters.

At the same 606 meters, the 119,500 cd is going to give you ~ 0.33 lux.

So, the real question is, what does 0.33 lux look like next to 0.25 lux, 606 meters away?

Another way to look at it is the throw to 1 lux, a lux level more likely to be USEFUL at long ranges.

The 92k cd gives 1 lux at ~ 303 meters.

The 119,500 cd gives 1 lux at ~ 345 meters.

If you needed a MINIMUM of 1 lux to resolve what you were looking for...you could resolve it ~ 40 meters further away with the newer version of the light.

Without TARGETS to tell you if you COULD resolve them or not, just shining the beams off into the distance, you could not tell 300 m from 340 m, etc. With targets, say you were looking for a lost child, you could SEE the kid even if they are 40 m farther away.

Is it WORTH IT to see stuff another 40 m away? (Cost of ANOTHER TK-75) As a hobbyist, probably not. As a disaster responder, probably...as handing a kid back to the mom can make it so.

Of course, in real life, you can SELL the old light to subsidize the new one...which makes the swap less painful.

4) The formula to calculate the range to 1 lux, in meters, is the square root of the cd. So, the square root of the cd = the range in meters, to 1 lux.

Ignore the ANSI ranges for practical purposes, they are more to see the beam as hitting something, but, at long ranges, you typically cannot see what the beam is illuminating well enough to be useful. At close range, the 0.25 lux can be fine with night adapted eyes, etc....but a few hundred meters away, you need your fovea to resolve fine details, and, your fovea's night vision is TERRIBLE...and it simply needs more light to work.

That means that if you were to hold a book 600 m away, and someone ELSE shined that TK-75 at it, YOU might be able to read it, but THEY might not even see you were there/holding a book.

Food for thought.

PS - I'm not that far from you (Lawrenceville, NJ) - We could go out to play one night, and I could show you some examples of the above.

hivoltage · Aug 13, 2013

Sweet....maybe I will get the new ond and sell my old one!!!

foxxkat · Aug 13, 2013

nice post by TEEJ above. i'm looking forward to my TK75 (new) and hope its flood won't disappoint.

is lux=lumen?
wondering how bright is 0.25lux

RemcoM · Aug 13, 2013

Hi everybody,

I have a idea, when you were in the dark, in an open field, take the TK75 with you, and a small chair for the light, put the light on at its highest setting, and get, walk/driva away at a point you are about 600 meters away from the TK75, and see how things light up at that distance. Do you all think, that at 600 meters distance the TK75 lit things a bit up?

Capolini · Aug 13, 2013

TEEJ said:
/\ /\ /\

This

You (OP) confused/could use some help with several points:

1) The distance IS the candela (cd), so by saying you are not interested in the distance, just the cd, that is like saying you don't care how long it is, only how many feet long it is, etc.

2) Beam intensity (Lux on target) follows the inverse square law, so at double the distance, its 1/4 as bright. The human eye is TERRIBLE at brightness evaluation...and all attempts to judge the brightness in of itself are always a vulnerability for this issue.

The eye does much better at differentiation of targets. This means that if light #1 shows you a few targets, and light #2 shows you a few more, THAT you can quantify and evaluate successfully. Almost 100% of the time, a group of people will look at a beam shot on a wall, etc, and with all earnestness, tell you the 131 lumen light is brighter than the 900 lumen light....but is shone out into a field with trees and shrubs, rocks, etc, (IE: Targets), the same group will tell you they saw more THINGS with the 900 L light, and so forth.

As we use the lights to see stuff (Typically), the second scenario is typically a more useful test of a light's output.

The exception is when we want to see something just beyond the range of one light, but within the range of the second light....then, if we don't see it with one light, and we do with the second light, we know the second light has more range.

If you use 100 yards or so to try to differentiate two lights with ranges over 600 yards, its going to be too much like the white wall tests. IE: The two spots of light will BOTH stop down your pupils, and look equally bright.

You would need to set your targets at the difference between the two target's ranges...and see if one reached and the other didn't, or at least get the range out far enough so that the spot of light is not stopping your pupils down...so that you could THEN tell the difference between two spots.

3) To get an idea of the real difference in beam intensity between the two lights, some simple math might help to internalize what the numbers mean in practice:

Original TK-75-Beam distance[throw]- 662 yards[606 meters],PBI[Candelas]- 92,000.
New TK-75-Beam distance[throw]- 754 yards[ 690 meters],PBI[Candelas]-119,500.

When they describe the beam's range, its to the ANSI standard's 0.25 lux. That means that the light bouncing back to your eyes (Lux) is down to 0.25 lux by the time it gets all the way out to that range.

So, for perspective, lets look at the Original TK-75 spec of 92,000 cd, giving ~ 0.25 lux at 606 meters.

At the same 606 meters, the 119,500 cd is going to give you ~ 0.33 lux.

So, the real question is, what does 0.33 lux look like next to 0.25 lux, 606 meters away?

Another way to look at it is the throw to 1 lux, a lux level more likely to be USEFUL at long ranges.

The 92k cd gives 1 lux at ~ 303 meters.

The 119,500 cd gives 1 lux at ~ 345 meters.

If you needed a MINIMUM of 1 lux to resolve what you were looking for...you could resolve it ~ 40 meters further away with the newer version of the light.

Without TARGETS to tell you if you COULD resolve them or not, just shining the beams off into the distance, you could not tell 300 m from 340 m, etc. With targets, say you were looking for a lost child, you could SEE the kid even if they are 40 m farther away.

Is it WORTH IT to see stuff another 40 m away? (Cost of ANOTHER TK-75) As a hobbyist, probably not. As a disaster responder, probably...as handing a kid back to the mom can make it so.

Of course, in real life, you can SELL the old light to subsidize the new one...which makes the swap less painful.

4) The formula to calculate the range to 1 lux, in meters, is the square root of the cd. So, the square root of the cd = the range in meters, to 1 lux.

Ignore the ANSI ranges for practical purposes, they are more to see the beam as hitting something, but, at long ranges, you typically cannot see what the beam is illuminating well enough to be useful. At close range, the 0.25 lux can be fine with night adapted eyes, etc....but a few hundred meters away, you need your fovea to resolve fine details, and, your fovea's night vision is TERRIBLE...and it simply needs more light to work.

That means that if you were to hold a book 600 m away, and someone ELSE shined that TK-75 at it, YOU might be able to read it, but THEY might not even see you were there/holding a book.

Food for thought.

PS - I'm not that far from you (Lawrenceville, NJ) - We could go out to play one night, and I could show you some examples of the above.

Thanks for the insight. I understand this a bit more!

There is NO LOSS on my part! Fenix outfitters will take it back! Live and learn!

This is just me[and remember I am new at this an no expert!] The reason I got the New one was because it is 27,500 more candela than the original. That is a little more than 33% additional candela. Did you or someone else say that was an incremental increase? If so, is that progression through each mode? Your email was very detailed and a lot of info!!

I was assuming[you know what they say about that!] I would have a "Hot Spot" 33% more intense!!!!:sigh: So, now I know more and I won't get fooled by those numbers again!

Have a great day

ciao,,,,,Roberto,,,,"Capo di Capo" "Keep Lighting Up The Darkness"!!

p.s. I need a light that will go from here to Italy,,,,,no lasers! :thumbsup::hahaha::goodjob:

Maybe in the fall or winter[cooler weather] we could meet. Maybe I will bring my Siberian so he could kill some rabbits that we find with our torches!

NorthernStar · Aug 13, 2013

Excelent comparison thread!

I have been in the thoughts of buying a TK75 for long,but was not sure if i should get an old version to a lower price when dealer clearing out the stocks of it,or if i should buy the upgraded one since they have the same retail price. After reading this thread i came to the conclusion that there is so little difference between the old and the new version that i will go for the old version of the TK75 when i find a good price of it.

TEEJ · Aug 13, 2013

BTW - an excellent option if you love the TK75, is to send an OLD one to Vinh, and have him soup it up...and make the throw go nutz. (You COULD send the newer one, but, he's going to replace the LED's anyway, etc...so its better to bring up the bottom, etc...) That way, the OLD TK75 will out throw the new one, by a lot.

On the other hand, if you want throw, but don't care if its a TK75 or not, take a look at his K40 and TN31 modded versions, which are about 5 TIMES the cd of the TK75.

Or look at a DEFTX with a cd of over 900,000 (About NINE times the cd of the TK75), and so forth.

They are all smaller than the TK75 btw....despite being much stronger throwers.

thedoc007 · Aug 13, 2013

Isn't the DEFT-X like $750? I would love to have one, but not really in the same league...nor does it have the combo of throw and spill I like so much with the TK75.

TEEJ, I always appreciate your posts. Especially when you agree with me! Seriously, you explain the lux/candela/lumen/vision issue better than anyone else on CPF. I've probably read similar posts like 15 times (the topic comes up a lot), and I'm still not tired of them.

Capolini · Aug 13, 2013

TEEJ said:
BTW - an excellent option if you love the TK75, is to send an OLD one to Vinh, and have him soup it up...and make the throw go nutz. (You COULD send the newer one, but, he's going to replace the LED's anyway, etc...so its better to bring up the bottom, etc...) That way, the OLD TK75 will out throw the new one, by a lot.

On the other hand, if you want throw, but don't care if its a TK75 or not, take a look at his K40 and TN31 modded versions, which are about 5 TIMES the cd of the TK75.

Or look at a DEFTX with a cd of over 900,000 (About NINE times the cd of the TK75), and so forth.

They are all smaller than the TK75 btw....despite being much stronger throwers.

What is the cost of the DEFTX?? I think I will google it! I would imagine to get anything modified would be expensive, Am I right?

ciao,,,,Roberto "Capo di Capo "Keep Lighting Up The Darkness"!

The New TK-75 is on its way to Broken Arrow, OK for reimbursement. Now I can buy the Siberian [Capo] and I some filet mignon and lobster and tomorrow I can treat the girlfriend to wendy's!!! lol.:thumbsup: :clap:

:huh:

Original TK-75 VS. New TK-75

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